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#19 [02:33] <Gear> is there no way to get a vanilla server jar for 1.2.3? trying to get some mods that require it running and it seems that the minecraft site is about as useful as a paperweight for help in loacting one
#20 [02:33] <GreyVulpine> There is no way. Mojang does not archive any old versions of their software on their site
#21 [02:34] <Gear> yet they forbid disribution of older server files for what? to cause grief somngt their own community?
#22 [02:34] <Gear> aomngst*
#23 [02:35] <GreyVulpine> Yes, that's absolutely why.
#24 [02:36] <GreyVulpine> Not the reason that older versions are buggy, or that modders don't update as quickly. Or that frequently, third party sources are compromised with trojans and other malware
#25 [02:36] <GreyVulpine> But yes, it's all to cause grief.
#26 [02:36] <Gear> hence y im not wanting a 3rd party source and modders cant keep up when new patches are released so quickly. as many modders have stated
#27 [02:37] <Gear> just doesnt make much sense to not keep an archive of their older server files for people that need them
#28 [02:37] <GreyVulpine> I absolutely love it when developers release patches on a regular basis. It prevents bugginess and other unintended software features to ruin my experience.
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#30 [02:37] <GreyVulpine> Mojang isn't stopping you from archiving the files on your personal computer.
#31 [02:37] <Gear> im not arguing that point, but for people that dont plain strictly vanilla, which is quite boring to many people.
#32 [02:38] * GreyVulpine shrugs
#32 [02:38] <GreyVulpine> Mojang was already blamed, as well as attacked, for slow development
#33 [02:38] <GreyVulpine> Can't have it both ways.
#34 [02:39] <Gear> just seems a bit counterproductive to encourage a modding community then tell them they cant have access to the files needed unless they personally copied it when they may or may not have even been playing that that point in time.
#35 [02:39] <Gear> reguardless, arging with a wall at this point, good day.
#36 [02:39] * GreyVulpine waves
#36 [02:47] * Danmi [Danmi@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#37 [02:48] <Danmi> Help..
#38 [02:48] <GreyVulpine> With?
#39 [02:48] <Danmi> Transaction failed
#40 [02:48] <Danmi> We were unable to deduct 19.95 EUR from your credit/debit card because the transaction was declined by your card issuing bank. To continue with this payment we advise that you try again using a different credit/debit card.
#41 [02:48] <Danmi> what the..T^T
#42 [02:48] <Danmi> help...T^T
#43 [02:48] <GreyVulpine> That is going to be something you'll need to call your bank for.
#44 [02:48] <GreyVulpine> :payment/stopped
#45 [02:48] <WugBot> payment/stopped: Banks, credit card companies, etc. frequently stop minecraft purchases for your protection because they are international transactions. You may have to call your financial institution and ask that they approve the transfer.
#46 [02:48] <WugBot> payment/stopped: If you're not sure what to say, tell them: "I would like to make an international purchase and payment is being declined. How would I go about approving the purchase?"
#47 [02:48] <GreyVulpine> ^
#48 [02:49] <Danmi> bank?
#49 [02:49] <Danmi> bank call?
#50 [02:49] <GreyVulpine> Yes.
#51 [02:49] <Danmi> Minecraft Is not the problem?
#52 [02:49] <GreyVulpine> No.
#53 [02:49] <Danmi> I'm Korean , um...
#54 [02:50] <Danmi> korean bank call?
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#56 [02:50] <GreyVulpine> You will need to call up your bank or financial institution, with whatever you used to try and pay for minecraft with.
#57 [02:50] <Danmi> OK...
#58 [02:50] <GreyVulpine> They most likely stopped the payment from proceeding
#59 [02:50] <Danmi> Thank You ..
#60 [02:50] <Danmi> T_T
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#64 [03:31] <Sladex> hello. once again, I have trouble with my game client crashing on startup. The error seems to be with the display driver, and the problem gets solved when I reinstall this... I'm just wondering if anyone might know why this keeps happening?
#65 [03:32] <GreyVulpine> Any reason why the video drivers are getting rolled back?
#66 [03:32] <Sladex> yeah that's what I'm wondering too...
#67 [03:33] <GreyVulpine> Have you checked to see what version of video drivers you've got installed, versus what version of the video drivers you're updating to?
#68 [03:33] <GreyVulpine> If they're getting rolled back, you can confirm that the version of the drivers don't match up anymore.
#69 [03:35] <Sladex> http://mibpaste.com/rHTjhK there's the crash report in any case
#70 [03:35] <GreyVulpine> In uncommon cases, some mods have been known to cause display issues as well
#71 [03:36] <Sladex> okay, I already have the latest drivers installed, but I have to reinstall it to be able to launch the game..
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#75 [03:53] <Calinou> rq.
#76 [03:53] <Calinou> :P
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#104 [08:12] <paulens12> hello
#105 [08:12] <DiskDaemon> Hi there :)
#106 [08:12] <paulens12> :D
#107 [08:12] <paulens12> you know my question..
#108 [08:12] <paulens12> :P
#109 [08:12] <DiskDaemon> Answer: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaee/downloads/java-ee-sdk-6u3-web-downloads-439820.html
#110 [08:12] <paulens12> do i need "web" version?
#111 [08:13] <DiskDaemon> Yes, that can be very useful if you want to make things that run in a web browser
#112 [08:13] <paulens12> oh
#113 [08:13] <paulens12> well
#114 [08:13] <paulens12> but if does it have all functions?
#115 [08:13] <paulens12> or is it ONLY for web?
#116 [08:13] <DiskDaemon> It's not only, it's also.
#117 [08:13] <paulens12> oh ok :D
#118 [08:14] <paulens12> emm there are 2 versions one ends with windows-ml and other just windows
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#120 [08:15] <DiskDaemon> I don't think that the -ml is the preferable one
#121 [08:15] * i [i@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#122 [08:16] <DiskDaemon> Get the -ml one only if you want to also deal with multilingual issues
#123 [08:16] <paulens12> oh and in it's enterprise edition lol
#124 [08:16] <paulens12> ok...
#125 [08:18] <paulens12> http://clip2net.com/clip/m77292/1334837873-clip-304kb.jpg
#126 [08:18] <paulens12> lol the guy from youtube tutorial said i don't need EE xDD
#127 [08:18] <DiskDaemon> EE provides web browser support, if you want to develop for that sort of thing
#128 [08:19] <paulens12> omg install directory was set to C:\glassfish3
#129 [08:19] <paulens12> xDDDD
#130 [08:19] <paulens12> that sounds like a player nick xDDD
#131 [08:20] <DiskDaemon> From elsewhere: "By Java they usually mean J2SE, the standard (base) set of VM and APIs. J2EE
#132 [08:20] <DiskDaemon> is the set of all enterprise technologies (servlets, JSPs, EJBs, etc.) that
#133 [08:20] <DiskDaemon> build on top of the standard edition.
#134 [08:21] <DiskDaemon> damned copy/paste from web page...
#135 [08:21] * DiskDaemon bows and scrapes in apology
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#138 [08:23] <paulens12> ok
#139 [08:23] <paulens12> isn't there a 64bit version? ;D
#140 [08:24] <paulens12> installing glassfish server O.o
#141 [08:25] <paulens12> domain info? xD
#142 [08:30] <paulens12> http://clip2net.com/clip/m77292/1334838592-clip-21kb.jpg arrgghhh
#143 [08:30] <paulens12> it's stuck on this for 5 minutes -.-
#144 [08:30] <paulens12> the same percents, the same time remaining
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#147 [08:39] <Aziroshin> Hallo. I have minecraft version 1.2.5 and I would like to connect to a server of which I am not sure if it is currently running. It is saying "Can't resolve hostname", even though the hostname is clearly resolvable. Thus, I concur this error message has different meanings from its wording.
#148 [08:40] <Aziroshin> Reading through stuff regarding that server, it seems that a few hours ago, people have been able to play. I tried last evening, and the same error occured as is occuring now. Either the server's been online in the meantime and went offline again, or I am having issues here.
#149 [08:41] <Aziroshin> What are the cases the client is throwing that error?
#150 [08:41] <Aziroshin> (I've tried the raw IP as well, just to be sure)
#151 [08:42] <paulens12> wrong port?
#152 [08:42] <paulens12> O.o
#153 [08:42] <Aziroshin> No port was specified. It's also hosted by a dedicated minecraft hoster and a pretty popular server in the making. I assume it is using the standard port.
#154 [08:43] <Aziroshin> Could I query someone and he could maybe try to connect there and see what happens? o:
#155 [08:44] <DiskDaemon> There is the !check <ip> command that can be used to check a minecraft server
#156 [08:46] * Keltinray [Keltinray@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#157 [08:46] <GreyVulpine> There is a very well known vulnerability that is floating around at the moment. We're asking that people refrain from connecting to random servers, to prevent their user accounts from being stolen
#158 [08:46] <Aziroshin> Thanks for the information.
#159 [08:46] <Aziroshin> (though, the server I am trying to connec to certainly wouldn't do that. :)
#160 [08:47] <DiskDaemon> GreyVulpine: Is it okay or even preferable) for that !check command to be used then?
#161 [08:47] <GreyVulpine> !check and ;check can stil be used safely
#162 [08:47] <Aziroshin> That is a command for one of the bots here, yes?
#163 [08:48] <GreyVulpine> Yes
#164 [09:00] <Aziroshin> Okay. It seems they've changed the server IP. I had to re-create the server entry and it worked.
#165 [09:00] <paulens12> whew
#166 [09:00] <paulens12> finally i installed it xD
#167 [09:00] <paulens12> java jdk
#168 [09:00] <paulens12> lol
#169 [09:05] * Grim_Reaper [Grim_Reaper@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#170 [09:06] <paulens12> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl-zzrqQoSE&list=PLFE2CE09D83EE3E28&index=1&feature=plpp_video
#171 [09:06] <paulens12> emmm
#172 [09:06] <paulens12> about 5:30
#173 [09:06] <paulens12> i registered path variable
#174 [09:06] <paulens12> but it still doesn't recognize javac command :(
#175 [09:09] <paulens12> hey?
#176 [09:11] * andrewxios [andrewxios@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#177 [09:13] <paulens12> help me :(
#178 [09:13] <WugBot> paulens12: (ww) Help you with what? Please describe the problem in detail.
#179 [09:14] <paulens12> emm
#180 [09:14] <paulens12> lol bot? xD
#181 [09:14] <paulens12> 16:06 paulens12 i registered path variable 16:06 paulens12 but it still doesn't recognize javac command
#182 [09:15] <clarjon1> eh
#183 [09:15] <clarjon1> well, did you install the JRE or the JDK
#184 [09:15] <clarjon1> because, javac is part of the Java Development Kit ( JDK )
#185 [09:16] <clarjon1> if i recall correctly.
#186 [09:16] <paulens12> jdk
#187 [09:16] * rymate1234 [rymate1234@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#188 [09:16] <clarjon1> i dunno, i use linux man.
#189 [09:16] <sisk> ^
#190 [09:17] <clarjon1> it takes care of all that stuff for me
#191 [09:17] <paulens12> lol
#192 [09:17] <paulens12> xD
#193 [09:18] <clarjon1> paulens12: I mean, I keep hearing about how easy Windows is to use, but then I see all these problems, lol
#194 [09:18] <paulens12> :D
#195 [09:18] <paulens12> windows is really easy to use xDDDDD
#196 [09:18] <clarjon1> apt-get install sun-java6-jdk
#197 [09:18] <clarjon1> bam, done
#198 [09:18] <paulens12> :DDDDDD
#199 [09:18] <paulens12> command line..
#200 [09:18] <paulens12> bullshit :P
#201 [09:18] <clarjon1> alright, well
#202 [09:19] <paulens12> lol
#203 [09:19] * clarjon1 fires up Software Manager
#203 [09:19] * clarjon1 searches for "jdk"
#203 [09:19] <paulens12> ???
#204 [09:19] <paulens12> O.o
#205 [09:19] * paulens12 kills himself
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#206 [09:20] <clarjon1> paulens12: i see this: http://wstaw.org/m/2012/04/19/plasma-desktopIa1914.jpg
#207 [09:20] <clarjon1> so i click on the java logo
#208 [09:20] * GreyVulpine snrks
#208 [09:20] * paulens12 [paulens12@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#209 [09:20] <paulens12> accidently clicked x
#210 [09:20] <paulens12> lol
#211 [09:20] <clarjon1> which gives me this: http://wstaw.org/m/2012/04/19/plasma-desktopqU1914.jpg
#212 [09:21] <clarjon1> one button to click to install, no command line
#213 [09:21] <paulens12> ?
#214 [09:21] <paulens12> -.-
#215 [09:21] <paulens12> i don't care
#216 [09:21] <clarjon1> no having to hunt down things like path variable issues
#217 [09:21] <paulens12> i just want to start learning java lol
#218 [09:21] <paulens12> -.-
#219 [09:21] <clarjon1> i can just jump in and start to learn ^_^
#220 [09:21] <clarjon1> also
#221 [09:21] <clarjon1> have you tried rebooting?
#222 [09:22] <clarjon1> seems to fix a lot of windows issues.
#223 [09:22] <clarjon1> especially with path issues not sticking
#224 [09:22] <clarjon1> And another thing
#225 [09:22] <clarjon1> go, with the file manager, to the directory you specified for path
#226 [09:22] <clarjon1> ensure that the javac.exe is in the directory you added
#227 [09:22] <clarjon1> ^_^
#228 [09:22] <paulens12> lol
#229 [09:22] <paulens12> xD
#230 [09:23] <paulens12> there is no javac.exe in my computer O.o
#231 [09:23] <paulens12> maybe
#232 [09:23] <paulens12> because it's EE?
#233 [09:23] <paulens12> :/
#234 [09:24] <clarjon1> that explains why it wasn't being found in PATH
#235 [09:24] <paulens12> lol
#236 [09:24] <paulens12> what should i do? xD
#237 [09:24] <DiskDaemon> Is it the SDK version taht you have there?
#238 [09:24] <paulens12> ...
#239 [09:24] <paulens12> i said i have EE jkd
#240 [09:24] <clarjon1> EE?
#241 [09:24] <paulens12> jdk*
#242 [09:24] <clarjon1> what is EE
#243 [09:24] <paulens12> yes
#244 [09:24] <paulens12> enterprise edition? xD
#245 [09:24] <paulens12> someone said
#246 [09:24] <paulens12> it's better xD
#247 [09:25] <paulens12> it includes web things..
#248 [09:25] <clarjon1> did you get it from java.com or oracle.com?
#249 [09:25] <paulens12> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaee/downloads/java-ee-sdk-6u3-web-downloads-439820.html
#250 [09:25] * rymate1234 [rymate1234@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#251 [09:26] <paulens12> that was DiskDaemon
#252 [09:26] <paulens12> i think
#253 [09:26] * DiskDaemon waves
#253 [09:26] <paulens12> xD
#254 [09:26] <paulens12> it doesn't work :(
#255 [09:26] <paulens12> how to launch it
#256 [09:26] <paulens12> ?
#257 [09:26] <paulens12> i mean
#258 [09:26] <paulens12> it doesn't detect javac command
#259 [09:27] <GreyVulpine> So um. Why are you looking for a javac command, and not actually installing an IDE?
#260 [09:27] <DiskDaemon> Normally a separate program is used to develop java, such as Eclipse, which in turn makes use of the jdk tools.
#261 [09:28] <paulens12> emm
#262 [09:28] <paulens12> i'm new here xD
#263 [09:28] <GreyVulpine> Obviously.
#264 [09:28] <clarjon1> especially if you're dissing the command line
#265 [09:28] <paulens12> i use these tutorials http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl-zzrqQoSE&list=PLFE2CE09D83EE3E28&index=1&feature=plpp_video
#266 [09:28] <GreyVulpine> Go look up Eclipse, or Netbeans. Download it
#267 [09:28] <paulens12> oh
#268 [09:28] <paulens12> ok...
#269 [09:28] <clarjon1> GreyVulpine: i like netbeans
#270 [09:28] <DiskDaemon> paulens12: What is your intention. To learn how to program Java from the very start?
#271 [09:28] <paulens12> so i dont need command prompt anymore?
#272 [09:28] * GreyVulpine prefers eclipse
#272 [09:28] <paulens12> yes
#273 [09:29] <paulens12> i know php from programming now..
#274 [09:29] <clarjon1> paulens12: http://java.sun.com/new2java/programming/learn/ "Setting Up and Getting Started in Java Programming"
#275 [09:29] <DiskDaemon> Listen to these guys here, they can get you on the right path
#276 [09:29] <paulens12> and computercraft lua
#277 [09:29] <GreyVulpine> But my knowledge in java is very limited. I'm a C/C++ guy
#278 [09:29] <GreyVulpine> Give me vi and a command line, and I'm happy.
#279 [09:29] <clarjon1> GreyVulpine: i like step 2 in those instructions
#280 [09:29] <clarjon1> Step 2: Set Up a Development Environment
#281 [09:29] <clarjon1> If you downloaded the JDK with the NetBeans IDE, start NetBeans, and begin programming.
#282 [09:29] <GreyVulpine> Heh
#283 [09:30] <paulens12> omg
#284 [09:30] <paulens12> so i downloaded wrong version?
#285 [09:30] <clarjon1> it's possible
#286 [09:30] <paulens12> lol diskdaemon xD
#287 [09:30] <clarjon1> follow the instructions in the link i gave you
#288 [09:30] <clarjon1> that's from the people who made it
#289 [09:30] <paulens12> shit
#290 [09:30] <paulens12> now i need to reinstall it xD
#291 [09:30] <clarjon1> glad I could help
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#293 [09:31] <DiskDaemon> If you use Eclipse as your IDE (which is a favourite of many) it's not wrong
#294 [09:31] <DiskDaemon> If you use NetBeans, which is another favourite, there can be easier ways to install that one
#295 [09:31] <Gurkenglas> I just died due to a creeper and ran back, but only found part of my stuff lying where I died
#296 [09:31] <paulens12> so
#297 [09:31] <Gurkenglas> Does in 1.2.3 dying delete some of your stuff?
#298 [09:31] <GreyVulpine> Stuff only lasts 5 minutes before it goes poof
#299 [09:31] <paulens12> what to do now? xD
#300 [09:31] <GreyVulpine> It does not
#301 [09:31] <paulens12> install eclipse?
#302 [09:31] <clarjon1> paulens12: eclipse or netbeans
#303 [09:31] <Gurkenglas> But wouldnt all of it have disappeared then?
#304 [09:31] <clarjon1> your choice :)
#305 [09:31] <paulens12> ok
#306 [09:31] <clarjon1> Gurkenglas: was there a second creeper?
#307 [09:31] * rymate1234 [rymate1234@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#308 [09:32] <GreyVulpine> Or lava?
#309 [09:32] <Gurkenglas> I dont know, I didnt even see the first one
#310 [09:32] <Gurkenglas> No lava
#311 [09:32] <paulens12> but
#312 [09:32] <clarjon1> Gurkenglas: if there were two creepers, one could have exploded slightly after, destroying some of the stuff
#313 [09:32] <Gurkenglas> But would a second creeper explode once I am dead?
#314 [09:32] <clarjon1> yea
#315 [09:32] <GreyVulpine> mhmm
#316 [09:32] <paulens12> there is no javac.exe
#317 [09:32] <Gurkenglas> I thought they dont explode if I get out of range
#318 [09:32] <Gurkenglas> Does being dead not mean being out of range?
#319 [09:32] <clarjon1> Gurkenglas: if you're dead, your body is still in range
#320 [09:32] <clarjon1> especially if the creeper was only like, half a second later in the explosion
#321 [09:32] <Gurkenglas> dat notchcode. Okay, that should explain it
#322 [09:32] <Gurkenglas> thanks
#323 [09:33] <clarjon1> np
#324 [09:33] <clarjon1> it's annoying when that happens, but oh well lol
#325 [09:38] <paulens12> ok
#326 [09:38] <paulens12> i downloaded eclipse
#327 [09:38] <paulens12> what now?
#328 [09:39] <GreyVulpine> Run it
#329 [09:39] <paulens12> which file to launch?
#330 [09:39] <paulens12> eclipse
#331 [09:39] <paulens12> or eclipsec
#332 [09:39] <paulens12> ?
#333 [09:39] <paulens12> .exe
#334 [09:39] <GreyVulpine> That all depends on what version of eclipse you downloaded. There's quite a few of them
#335 [09:39] <paulens12> http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/technology/epp/downloads/release/indigo/SR2/eclipse-jee-indigo-SR2-win32-x86_64.zip
#336 [09:40] <paulens12> it's Eclipse IDE for Java EE Developers, 212 MB
#337 [09:40] * [JD] [[JD]@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#338 [09:41] <GreyVulpine> So just run eclipse.exe
#339 [09:41] <paulens12> ok :)
#340 [09:43] * rymate1234 [rymate1234@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#341 [09:43] * GreyVulpine points to http://eclipsetutorial.sourceforge.net/totalbeginner.html -- for further resources on eclipse/java
#341 [09:44] <DiskDaemon> paulens12: Do you have any intention to use Java for exploring some Minecraft modding at some stage too?
#342 [09:45] <DiskDaemon> #risucraft is the central place for getting modding assistance if that's the case. They look down on people who are new to Java in general though
#343 [09:45] * GreyVulpine shudders
#343 [09:46] * z_ [z_@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#344 [09:46] * MuumiJu1 [MuumiJu1@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#345 [09:46] <GreyVulpine> Really only hit #risucraft if you need help on specific modloader API questions. Otherwise, try #mcp-modding. Both places are not where you go to learn how to program though
#346 [09:46] * x [x@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#347 [09:48] <DiskDaemon> Dammit, #risucraft's topic of "General Minecraft Modding Discussion" might be misleading then
#348 [09:48] * clarjon1 [clarjon1@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#349 [09:48] <GreyVulpine> general modding discussion is generally based around, "How can I install mod X", to "What mod does this?"
#350 [09:49] <clarjon1> heh.
#351 [09:49] <GreyVulpine> But more often than not, "the MC code has RandomObsfucatedFunctionHere(), what the hell does it do?"
#352 [09:49] <GreyVulpine> Which they have a nifty lookup bot for.
#353 [09:50] <GreyVulpine> ?? snapshot
#354 [09:50] <VoxelHead> snapshot: Latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w15a/minecraft.jar
#355 [09:50] <GreyVulpine> ??~snapshot|Latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w16a/minecraft.jar
#356 [09:51] * GreyVulpine kicks Vox
#356 [09:51] <DiskDaemon> What would be the best advice for someone who's new to java and wants to mod minecraft? To avoid modding at first and focus on learning java?
#357 [09:51] <GreyVulpine> Learn Java...
#358 [09:51] <clarjon1> DiskDaemon: That, and read other modders source codes
#359 [09:51] <clarjon1> ( if they are made available )
#360 [09:51] <DiskDaemon> yep, good advice
#361 [09:51] <clarjon1> That's how I start learning a language, I start reading code made by others
#362 [09:52] <clarjon1> see what tricks i can pick up on, become intrigued by different things, learn how to use them by then going to the language documentation,etc :)
#363 [09:52] <GreyVulpine> Know enough languages, and you start to fumble with some syntax, as well as limitations of the language.
#364 [09:53] * GreyVulpine still has a certain hatred of java's untyped variables.
#364 [09:53] <GreyVulpine> or lack of.
#365 [09:54] <GreyVulpine> Ooo.. latest snapshot includes: "Added a demo mode for non-premium users (won’t be available until we do a full update)"
#366 [09:54] <GreyVulpine> And "Added option to enable single-player commands to create world screen"
#367 [09:54] <clarjon1> ooooo
#368 [09:55] <clarjon1> Ooooooooooooooo!!
#369 [09:56] * m0nk [m0nk@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#370 [09:58] * Kristis [Kristis@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#371 [09:58] <Kristis> Hello
#372 [09:58] <Kristis> Hello
#373 [09:58] <GreyVulpine> Hi
#374 [09:58] <Kristis> I have problems with my Minecraft account.
#375 [09:58] <GreyVulpine> And what problems would that be?
#376 [09:59] <Kristis> Account migrated. My email,where i was purchased the game was hacked.
#377 [09:59] <Kristis> So i can't login with my email.
#378 [10:00] <GreyVulpine> Only way to get this straightened out, is to contact Mojang directly through: http://help.mojang.com/customer/portal/emails/new
#379 [10:00] <Kristis> Ow.
#380 [10:00] <Kristis> :/
#381 [10:00] <Kristis> Il try
#382 [10:00] <GreyVulpine> Make sure to include the transaction ID of the receipt that you got from purchasing minecraft
#383 [10:00] <Kristis> OK.
#384 [10:00] <Kristis> Thanks.
#385 [10:01] <paulens12> lol
#386 [10:01] <paulens12> was i muted? xD
#387 [10:01] <GreyVulpine> You were not.
#388 [10:01] <paulens12> i received a pm frop voxelhead xD
#389 [10:01] <paulens12> that i'm muted
#390 [10:01] <paulens12> lol..
#391 [10:02] <paulens12> from*
#392 [10:02] <paulens12> public static void main(String[] args) { what does this line mean?
#393 [10:03] <GreyVulpine> Declaring a "main" function, with arguments.
#394 [10:03] <paulens12> and..
#395 [10:03] <paulens12> what is "main"?
#396 [10:03] <paulens12> O.o
#397 [10:03] <GreyVulpine> Oh boy..
#398 [10:04] <paulens12> lol
#399 [10:04] <paulens12> xD
#400 [10:04] <GreyVulpine> Main is the function the program goes into, when it launches
#401 [10:04] <paulens12> sorry for my stupid questions xD
#402 [10:04] <paulens12> oh!
#403 [10:04] <paulens12> ok
#404 [10:04] <paulens12> :D
#405 [10:04] <paulens12> omg O.o
#406 [10:04] <paulens12> i was muted again O.o
#407 [10:05] <paulens12> so for example
#408 [10:05] <paulens12> public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println("Hello world!"); }
#409 [10:05] <paulens12> is a function?
#410 [10:05] <GreyVulpine> That looks right
#411 [10:05] <paulens12> ok..
#412 [10:05] <paulens12> it's like "function hello(x) {echo $x;} in php ;D
#413 [10:06] <GreyVulpine> Say you have a program, "yourprogram". You launch it with "yourprogram" in the command line. If you were to say, pass a few arguments along with it, "yourprogram -blarg"
#414 [10:06] <Gurkenglas> Will aggressive mobs despawn in SMP after a while of the chunk being unloaded?
#415 [10:06] <paulens12> O.o
#416 [10:06] <GreyVulpine> blarg would be stored in an array of strings, in index 0. Your program would be able to access it via args[0]
#417 [10:07] <GreyVulpine> But that's a lesson for another day.
#418 [10:07] <paulens12> oh
#419 [10:07] <paulens12> lol xD
#420 [10:07] <paulens12> is java similar to php? lol
#421 [10:07] <GreyVulpine> Gurkenglas - Yes
#422 [10:07] <Gurkenglas> How long a while?
#423 [10:07] <GreyVulpine> As far as I know, immediately after a chunk is unloaded.
#424 [10:08] <Gurkenglas> So I just have to relog when nobody is nearby?
#425 [10:08] * GreyVulpine nods
#425 [10:08] <GreyVulpine> paulens12 - I have never touched php, wouldn't know.
#426 [10:09] <GreyVulpine> Isn't PHP a scripting language though?
#427 [10:09] <Gurkenglas> aww man. >relog >no mobs >place filler >creeper blows me up, filler didnt drop
#428 [10:10] <Gurkenglas> I thought mobs only spawn in the night...
#429 [10:10] <GreyVulpine> Or places that are dark.
#430 [10:11] <Gurkenglas> I wanted to make the filler fill the floor of the area with slabs so mobs wont spawn all the time :/
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#432 [10:13] <DiskDaemon> no, java is nothing like php, if that helps :)
#433 [10:13] <paulens12> lol
#434 [10:13] <DiskDaemon> php is used to help you string together HTML pages and their content
#435 [10:13] <paulens12> i know...
#436 [10:14] <paulens12> but i mean variables, arrays, functions, if..else, etc.?
#437 [10:14] * mib_7zdtgh [mib_7zdtgh@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#438 [10:14] <mib_7zdtgh> hi guys
#439 [10:14] <DiskDaemon> virtually all programming languages are similar in that way
#440 [10:14] <paulens12> hi
#441 [10:14] <paulens12> ok :)
#442 [10:14] <paulens12> lol i knew that xD
#443 [10:14] <GreyVulpine> It's an object-oriented programming language, using a Java virtual machine to process compiled code
#444 [10:15] * Morrolan|away [Morrolan|away@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#445 [10:15] <mib_7zdtgh> could someone help me out? i've been trying to install a custom font so i used the plugin "betterfonts"... seems simple enough... but i can't seem to put it to work properly... any ideas anyone? if not... does anyone know another mod that works fine?
#446 [10:16] <mib_7zdtgh> for custom fonts i mean
#447 [10:16] <mib_7zdtgh> =(
#448 [10:16] * GreyVulpine points at: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/232701-12w16a-125update-418-mcpatcher-hd-fix-236-01/
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#449 [10:17] <mib_7zdtgh> okay im gonna try to understand how to install with mcpatcher thank you
#450 [10:20] <paulens12> http://clip2net.com/clip/m77292/1334845238-clip-136kb.jpg
#451 [10:21] <mib_7zdtgh> okay,,, i found it on mcpatcher... but how do i install a custom font?
#452 [10:22] <mib_7zdtgh> do i have to replace a file or something? i really don't know where to go from here..
#453 [10:23] <paulens12> emm
#454 [10:23] <paulens12> pm me
#455 [10:23] <paulens12> i can help you :D
#456 [10:29] * Keltinray [Keltinray@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#457 [10:35] <paulens12> lol this is hidden text xD
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#460 [10:52] <Aikar> I know off topic but #minecraft is not a minecraft channel :( can anyone confirm if the mob spawn caps for natural spawns formula calculates based on world and not entire server? it seems end has its own cap vs wild e
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#463 [11:00] <Gurkenglas> The mobs didnt despawn on relog D:
#464 [11:01] <Gurkenglas> They just went invisible for the first 10 secs after login
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#471 [11:34] <paulens12> gurkenglas i think they respawned :)
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#478 [12:15] * mib_hdi0ey [mib_hdi0ey@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#479 [12:15] <mib_hdi0ey> Ist wer deutsch
#480 [12:15] <mib_hdi0ey> ???
#481 [12:16] * Ignorama1 [Ignorama1@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#482 [12:16] <mib_hdi0ey> halo?
#483 [12:16] <mib_hdi0ey> halo?
#484 [12:17] * mib_hdi0ey [mib_hdi0ey@notlogged] has left #minecrafthelp
#485 [12:20] * mib_eqj029 [mib_eqj029@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#486 [12:20] <mib_eqj029> Ist irgendwer deutsch? ;(
#487 [12:20] * iChaos [iChaos@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#488 [12:21] <mib_eqj029> I have before me a week minecraft about my ec card I bought but I still do not have premium status?
#489 [12:21] <Gurkenglas> paulens, no, they attacked me even before they became visible
#490 [12:22] <mollstam> ShaRose + JNZ: the passwords are hashed win an incorporated unique salt, and it's not md5 or some other dead function :]
#491 [12:22] * redstonehelper [redstonehelper@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#492 [12:23] <Grim_Reaper> Oh my word o.o
#493 [12:23] <Grim_Reaper> mollstam \o/ Before I wet myself. I just want to say thanks for your epic hardwork <3
#494 [12:23] <redstonehelper> this looks like I just missed something awesome
#495 [12:23] <Grim_Reaper> You did
#496 [12:24] <redstonehelper> tell me what please
#497 [12:24] <redstonehelper> if logs, pm
#498 [12:24] <Boreeas> [18:22:52] <mollstam> ShaRose + JNZ: the passwords are hashed win an incorporated unique salt, and it's not md5 or some other dead function
#499 [12:24] <Grim_Reaper> The most awesome staff of mojang for websites spoke :D
#500 [12:24] <redstonehelper> ok cool
#501 [12:25] <mollstam> herro
#502 [12:25] <Grim_Reaper> :3 sup
#503 [12:25] <redstonehelper> ay
#504 [12:25] <mollstam> thinking about which work related dark horse to work on ;o
#505 [12:25] <Grim_Reaper> :o
#506 [12:26] <redstonehelper> confirmed: horses to be added to minecraft
#507 [12:26] <redstonehelper> j/k, but it was confirmed before anyway
#508 [12:28] * fl1r [fl1r@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#509 [12:31] <redstonehelper> ok, now for why I am here. I just tried the new demo mode. to do that, you have to run minecraft with some additional arguments. I get an exception while doing that. Now this is a prerelease, but the same happens when I try to launch 1.2.5
#510 [12:31] <redstonehelper> http://pastebin.com/FDufsjAj
#511 [12:31] <redstonehelper> anybody have an idea how to fix that?
#512 [12:31] * matagin [matagin@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#513 [12:32] * Grim_Reaper checks redstonehelper's pastebin
#513 [12:32] <redstonehelper> thanks :)
#514 [12:33] <Grim_Reaper> Im terrible with java errors
#515 [12:33] <Grim_Reaper> But if Im understanding correctly..
#516 [12:33] <Grim_Reaper> could be an lwjgl issue
#517 [12:33] <redstonehelper> I'll force update and see if that changes anything.
#518 [12:34] <Grim_Reaper> Yeah give that a try
#519 [12:34] <Grim_Reaper> Also if that doesn't work
#520 [12:34] <Grim_Reaper> Backup your stuff, and try delete the whole .minecraft folder and try again and see if it still crashes
#521 [12:35] <redstonehelper> force download didn't help, now flushing .minecraft
#522 [12:35] <Calinou> hey redstonehelper :P
#523 [12:35] <redstonehelper> hey Calinou :D
#524 [12:35] <Calinou> the demo mode doesn't work
#525 [12:35] <Grim_Reaper> it doesn't?
#526 [12:35] <Grim_Reaper> News to me
#527 [12:35] <redstonehelper> someone got it to work
#528 [12:35] <Calinou> read the wiki
#529 [12:35] <Calinou> also, waht can you do in, Grim_Reaper ?
#530 [12:36] <Grim_Reaper> o.o?
#531 [12:36] <redstonehelper> fresh .minecraft doesn't help
#532 [12:36] <Grim_Reaper> Dont understand your question
#533 [12:36] <redstonehelper> Calinou: http://i.imgur.com/kTKZ8.png
#534 [12:38] * redstonehelper okayface
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#537 [12:55] <Calinou> lol
#538 [12:55] <Calinou> is there creative?
#539 [12:57] <redstonehelper> I don't know
#540 [12:57] <redstonehelper> I was trying to get it to work
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#545 [13:21] <Eventus84> Jemand da der deutsch spricht?/Anyone here who speaks german?
#546 [13:22] <redstonehelper> I do speak german, what's the matter?
#547 [13:22] <Eventus84> Ich habe ein kleines Payment problem...egal welche Art ich verwende, am ende wird IMMER nach ner Kreditkarte gefragt und diese habe ich nicht
#548 [13:22] * w [w@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#549 [13:23] <Eventus84> Ich würde mir SO gerne Minecraft anschaffen, aber wegen dieser Payment Geschichte geht das nicht....
#550 [13:23] <redstonehelper> keine ahnung, lies dir das hier durch. weiter kann ich nicht helfen. http://help.mojang.com/
#551 [13:24] <Eventus84> Ich habe schon alles versucht...auch das alles hab ich mir schon durchgelesen, aber danke dennoch :)
#552 [13:24] <redstonehelper> zur not könnteste @marc_irl auf twitter fragen. auf englisch.
#553 [13:25] <Eventus84> Argh mein Englisch beschränkt sich auf (erweitertes) Schulenglisch XD
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#555 [13:52] * Muccha [Muccha@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#556 [13:54] <Muccha> Hi! Is it possible to change the e-mail?
#557 [13:54] <Muccha> Hi! Is it possible to change the e-mail?
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#563 [14:18] <Amber> Interesting, can't change my name back to amberk....
#564 [14:18] <Amber> Interesting, can't change my name back to amberk....
#565 [14:19] * Alex__ [Alex__@notlogged] has left #minecrafthelp
#566 [14:21] <Boreeas> Amber: That would be since someone else is using that nick alread
#567 [14:28] * PcJamesy [PcJamesy@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#568 [14:33] <Grim_Reaper> http://i.imgur.com/gYQpv.gif
#569 [14:34] <redstonehelper> lol
#570 [14:38] * mib_mhtyef [mib_mhtyef@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#571 [14:40] <Boston125> When i turn on my sound or my music its freezes and then i still cant hear anything
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#578 [14:58] <SwingBlade> Hey folks, probably an easy enough issue.
#579 [14:58] <SwingBlade> I'm getting an Out of Memory error with MC
#580 [14:58] <SwingBlade> I have 12GB of RAM, shouldn't be an issue
#581 [14:58] <SwingBlade> I know it's a matter of adjusting how much RAM Java is addressing but I'm unsure on adjusting that.
#582 [14:59] <Wug> SwingBlade: get 64 bit java
#583 [14:59] <Wug> :j7
#584 [14:59] <WugBot> j7: You can try java 7 here: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre-7u3-download-1501631.html
#585 [14:59] <Wug> 64 bit for windows is the last one in the list
#586 [14:59] <Wug> uninstall all of the other versions you have first
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#588 [15:01] <SwingBlade> I could have sworn I got the 64-bit but I could easily have been mistaken, trying now.
#589 [15:01] <SwingBlade> Appreciate it, by the way.
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#592 [15:03] <ymer11111> how do I do it online without hamachi
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#597 [15:11] <schlenzer> hey all. I cant install minecraft. after I download the game and login in Ill get a black screen. what can I do now
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#601 [15:17] <schlenzer> hey all. I cant install minecraft. after I download the game and login in Ill get a black screen. what can I do now
#602 [15:19] <TheMouldyMarsBar> open up minecraft.jar in winRAR or 7z and deletree META-INF folder
#603 [15:20] <TheMouldyMarsBar> should be in %appdata%/.minecraft/bin
#604 [15:20] <schlenzer> where can I find META-INF?
#605 [15:20] <Wug> TheMouldyMarsBar: umm.
#606 [15:20] <Boreeas> On of the folders in the jar
#607 [15:21] <Wug> schlenzer: you havent installed mods, have you
#608 [15:21] <Grim_Reaper> ^
#609 [15:21] <Wug> its probably a graphics driver issue
#610 [15:21] <schlenzer> no mods
#611 [15:21] <schlenzer> its the first time
#612 [15:21] <Grim_Reaper> Tried updating your drivers?
#613 [15:21] <TheMouldyMarsBar> Wug: I hadn't installed any mods when I got the game, and I recieved a black screen.
#614 [15:21] <TheMouldyMarsBar> I deleted META-INF and it worked
#615 [15:22] <TheMouldyMarsBar> soo.... 0_o
#616 [15:22] <schlenzer> META-INF is in the .minecraft folder?
#617 [15:22] <Wug> I have never heard of that happening in the entire duration of my stay here
#618 [15:22] <Wug> :dx > schlenzer
#619 [15:22] <WugBot> schlenzer: (dx) Press the Win+R keys, and type "dxdiag" (no quotes) in the box. Press enter. If prompted about verifying WHQL, select Yes. Once it has finished loading, click the "Save All Information" button and save it to your desktop.
#620 [15:22] <WugBot> schlenzer: (dx) Open the file you just saved, and copy the contents. Paste them on http://pastebin.com/ and click Submit. Then, copy the link you are sent to, and paste it here.
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#622 [15:24] <schlenzer> u mean the bin folder in minecraft?
#623 [15:24] <Wug> schlenzer: follow the directions
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#625 [15:30] <schlenzer> I didnt understand what I have to paste there
#626 [15:30] <schlenzer> because I have only the bin folder and the last login
#627 [15:32] <Boreeas> Read again
#628 [15:35] <schlenzer> in the bin folder I find: jinput.jar, lwjgl.jar, lwjgl_util.jar, md5s, minecraft.jar, version
#629 [15:35] <schlenzer> thats all
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#631 [15:41] <schlenzer> ------------------ System Information ------------------ Time of this report: 4/19/2012, 21:38:48 Machine name: ASUS-PC Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (6.1, Build 7600) (7600.win7_gdr.120305-1504) Language: German (Regional Setting: German) System Manufacturer: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. System Model: K72Jk
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#633 [15:43] <WuggsBoson> schlenzer: read all of the directions, and then follow them
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#642 [16:22] <clarjon1> o.O
#643 [16:22] <clarjon1> yo WuggsBoson
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#646 [16:32] <mr_frog> hello is there admin? need to email notch
#647 [16:33] <mr_frog> hello?
#648 [16:33] <redstonehelper> you can email him
#649 [16:33] <mr_frog> how 2?
#650 [16:33] <redstonehelper> use the power of the googles to find his email address
#651 [16:33] <mr_frog> u dont now it?
#652 [16:33] <redstonehelper> then use an email program of your choice to compose and send an email to him.
#653 [16:34] <MalkContent> i have a general question about level seeds
#654 [16:34] <oldtopman> MalkContent: Shoot.
#655 [16:34] <MalkContent> i am running a small smp server
#656 [16:34] <MalkContent> that was created at 1.0
#657 [16:35] <MalkContent> is it possible to find jungle biomes on the map?
#658 [16:35] <redstonehelper> yes
#659 [16:35] <mr_frog> cant find email notch
#660 [16:35] <redstonehelper> explore new areas
#661 [16:35] <MalkContent> or does the level seed dictate that there wont be any
#662 [16:35] <MalkContent> nice :)
#663 [16:35] <redstonehelper> google harder mr_frog
#664 [16:35] <MalkContent> thanks
#665 [16:35] <redstonehelper> the level seed doesn't say anything
#666 [16:36] <mr_frog> i did redstonehelper???????
#667 [16:36] <redstonehelper> let's see
#668 [16:36] <redstonehelper> what's the company notch works for, mr_frog ?
#669 [16:36] <mr_frog> minecraft
#670 [16:36] <redstonehelper> try again
#671 [16:36] <MalkContent> lmgtfy.com/?q=notch email address
#672 [16:36] <mr_frog> ??? dont understand
#673 [16:37] <redstonehelper> minecraft is a game, not a company
#674 [16:37] <mr_frog> why do you not hlep me?
#675 [16:37] <MalkContent> sry, the link is
#676 [16:37] <MalkContent> lmgtfy.com/?q=notch+email+address
#677 [16:37] <redstonehelper> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=notch+email+address
#678 [16:37] <redstonehelper> click it
#679 [16:38] <mr_frog> so this is how 2 contact notch http://www.notchonline.com/contact/ ???
#680 [16:38] <MalkContent> dude the mail address is displayed in the first result, you don't even have to click it
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#682 [16:39] <redstonehelper> let's say it has about the same probability of being read by notch as by emailing him directly
#683 [16:39] <mr_frog> what that mean
#684 [16:39] <redstonehelper> let's say it has about the same probability of being read by notch as by emailing him directly
#685 [16:39] <AmberK_> Mr_frog
#686 [16:39] <AmberK_> if you really want to contact Notch
#687 [16:39] <AmberK_> I know he checks his tumblr and reddit account frequently
#688 [16:40] <mr_frog> k. what is tumblr
#689 [16:40] <MalkContent> google it
#690 [16:40] * redstonehelper popcorn
#690 [16:40] <mr_frog> i ont have reddit its bad
#691 [16:40] <MalkContent> if you don't find out in an hour
#692 [16:40] <MalkContent> ask again
#693 [16:40] <AmberK_> tumblr is essentially the same thing as reddit
#694 [16:40] <AmberK_> in the fact of what is shared
#695 [16:40] <mr_frog> reddit bad
#696 [16:41] <mr_frog> atheists and bad people
#697 [16:41] <AmberK_> atheist doesn't really make a person bad, but regardless...
#698 [16:41] <redstonehelper> what would you say if I told you I am from reddit?
#699 [16:42] <mr_frog> u act liek u r
#700 [16:42] <AmberK_> don't instigate the person. It's not really helpful.
#701 [16:42] <mr_frog> atheist bad, dont follow god
#702 [16:42] <mr_frog> amberk_
#703 [16:42] <AmberK_> Listen, try contacing his email. It's a form of contact nontheless, so just try it
#704 [16:43] <ShaRose> mollstam good. Also, are you really against changing the existing login protocol that much or? (should have woke up earlier)
#705 [16:43] <mr_frog> k thx
#706 [16:44] <mr_frog> k sent mail. how long 2 wait for answer?
#707 [16:44] <AmberK_> Until it is read. You really can't distinguish the time on that
#708 [16:44] <mr_frog> he should answer now
#709 [16:45] <AmberK_> Notch isn't attached to his computer, I'm sure
#710 [16:45] <redstonehelper> may I ask what you sent him?
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#712 [16:46] <mr_frog> redstonehelper: sent "plz fix my account"
#713 [16:46] <redstonehelper> he is not the guy for that
#714 [16:47] <redstonehelper> look through here - http://help.mojang.com/
#715 [16:47] <redstonehelper> that's their support center which will be much more helpful
#716 [16:47] <redstonehelper> what's wrong with you account?
#717 [16:47] <mr_frog> says "not premium"
#718 [16:47] <mr_frog> but i payed
#719 [16:47] <redstonehelper> yup, that's the site for it
#720 [16:48] <ShaRose> [Thursday 06:12:11 pm] <mr_frog> atheist bad, dont follow god
#721 [16:48] <ShaRose> Err.
#722 [16:48] <mr_frog> k. what link should i click
#723 [16:48] <mr_frog> Sharose wat is ctcp version
#724 [16:49] <ShaRose> I was just curious
#725 [16:49] <redstonehelper> mr_frog: read through the site, it has a link for "user not premium"
#726 [16:49] <mr_frog> k
#727 [16:49] <mr_frog> there r much links
#728 [16:49] <clarjon1> zomg ShaRose r u haxing again ;)
#729 [16:50] <redstonehelper> mr_frog: just read
#730 [16:50] <ShaRose> well he already said I was bad clarjon1~
#731 [16:50] <mr_frog> sharose u hack meh account
#732 [16:50] <mr_frog> ???
#733 [16:50] * redstonehelper popcorn
#733 [16:51] <ShaRose> mr_frog well, you said athiests are bad. I'm an atheist.
#734 [16:51] <ShaRose> And just fyi just because people don't believe in god that's a terrible reason to say they are bad.
#735 [16:51] <mr_frog> but y u hax? its rly bad, ill trace you
#736 [16:51] <mr_frog> trace your ip and send internet police
#737 [16:52] <mr_frog> consequences will never be the same
#738 [16:52] <ShaRose> cool story bro
#739 [16:52] <notch> i will ban ur minecraft
#740 [16:52] <ShaRose> cool story bro
#741 [16:52] <notch> !!!!!
#742 [16:53] <MalkContent> -_- man either you are 10, drunk or really lonely
#743 [16:53] <redstonehelper> lol
#744 [16:53] <MalkContent> probably all of that
#745 [16:53] <AmberK_> Erm
#746 [16:53] <ShaRose> Actually, he's either 5, trolling, or just really really dumb
#747 [16:53] <Guest13534> u guise suck
#748 [16:53] <AmberK_> frog, you are aware that it tells us you changed your name, non?
#749 [16:53] <Guest13534> never did
#750 [16:53] <MalkContent> im gonna close that now, thanks for the help with my question, forgot to say that
#751 [16:54] <Guest13534> fuck
#752 [16:54] * AuBot kicked Guest13534 from #minecrafthelp (Reason: uest13534 :Please keep it civil.)
#753 [16:54] <ShaRose> LOL
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#755 [16:54] <redstonehelper> aw man
#756 [16:54] <Guest13534> WTF!!!
#757 [16:54] <Guest13534> y
#758 [16:55] <redstonehelper> say "fu.ck" again
#759 [16:55] <Guest13534> fu.ck?
#760 [16:55] <oldtopman> Guest13534: Obey the bots and keep it civil.
#761 [16:55] <redstonehelper> without the "."
#762 [16:55] <Guest13534> fuck?
#763 [16:55] * AuBot kicked Guest13534 from #minecrafthelp (Reason: uest13534 :Please keep it civil.)
#764 [16:55] <redstonehelper> lol
#765 [16:55] <oldtopman> redstonehelper: That's really not nice, cut it out >.>
#766 [16:55] * Guest13534 [Guest13534@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#767 [16:55] <Guest13534> !
#768 [16:55] <redstonehelper> ok, I'll stop it
#769 [16:55] <Guest13534> redstonehelper y u ban me?
#770 [16:55] <redstonehelper> aubot did
#771 [16:55] <oldtopman> Guest13534: He's not banning you.
#772 [16:56] <oldtopman> Do either of you need help with something/
#773 [16:56] <redstonehelper> I can go, but I'd prefer to idle.
#774 [16:56] <Guest13534> oldtopman: want 2 email notch 2 fix meh account
#775 [16:56] <AmberK_> That isn't the proper way to go about it
#776 [16:56] <AmberK_> As stated earlier
#777 [16:56] <AmberK_> help.mojang.com contains links pertaining to your issue
#778 [16:56] <oldtopman> Guest13534: Send an email to notch@minecraft.net if you want.
#779 [16:57] <redstonehelper> use help.mojang.com and select the proper issue there, we can't help you much more
#780 [16:57] <oldtopman> I suggest help.mojang.com
#781 [16:57] <Guest13534> notch@help.mojang.com is emailaddress?
#782 [16:57] <AmberK_> you need to find the one with "account not premium", and include information like your paypal receipt, and your account name.
#783 [16:57] <redstonehelper> ok, he's trolling. definitely.
#784 [16:57] <AmberK_> This isn't officially affiliated with mojang, so no one here can exactly premium your account.
#785 [16:58] <Guest13534> wow
#786 [16:58] <Guest13534> great help
#787 [16:58] <AmberK_> http://help.mojang.com/
#788 [16:58] <redstonehelper> finally
#789 [16:58] <oldtopman> I swear...the day I get something other than kick priveleges.
#790 [16:58] * oldtopman stabs GreyVulpine (count: 2)
#790 [16:58] <Boreeas> Magnificient
#791 [16:59] * Boreeas is amused
#791 [16:59] <ShaRose> oldtopman +r should be kick and ban, unless one of the other bots allow it
#792 [16:59] <oldtopman> I have +r?
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#794 [16:59] <ShaRose> you said you had kick
#795 [16:59] <ShaRose> !flags oldtopman
#796 [17:00] <oldtopman> Ah, only through AuBot.
#797 [17:00] <ShaRose> ah
#798 [17:00] <redstonehelper> close enough
#799 [17:00] <ShaRose> also, hurr, no fantasy commands
#800 [17:00] <oldtopman> redstonehelper: He would have just rejoined :/
#801 [17:00] <Boreeas> ;flags oldtopman
#802 [17:00] <redstonehelper> ah, thought you had both and only knew of one
#803 [17:00] <Boreeas> Oh, right, that still doesn't work
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#805 [17:01] <oldtopman> Boreeas: Wug took my wugbot kicks away when someone threw a hissy about proper mv flags in linux
#806 [17:01] <Boreeas> What, did you tell them to mv /home /dev/null?
#807 [17:02] <oldtopman> No, I put -r in there, and almostroot kept bitching about it.
#808 [17:02] <oldtopman> (he's number 2 on my ignore list)
#809 [17:03] <oldtopman> *sigh*
#810 [17:03] <ShaRose> In risucraft we like to use good old +q to deal with undersirables
#811 [17:03] <oldtopman> I just make a habit of stabbing GV whenever I would find a use for quiet/ban
#812 [17:03] <ShaRose> we don't hear them, and they don't know any better
#813 [17:03] <oldtopman> ShaRose: I don't have quiet, just kick
#814 [17:03] <ShaRose> OH
#815 [17:03] <ShaRose> oh
#816 [17:03] <Boreeas> ShaRose: I try to avoid risucraft
#817 [17:03] <ShaRose> why? :S
#818 [17:04] <TheNoodle> I don't think I have wugbot flags here.. :(
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#820 [17:04] <Boreeas> The couple of times I was in there the atmosphere put me off. Too many rude people.
#821 [17:04] <ShaRose> It's to be expected tbh
#822 [17:05] <Boreeas> TheNoodle: That's great, because I have.
#823 [17:05] <redstonehelper> whoa, TheNoodl*e is an anagram to TheOldOn*e :o
#824 [17:05] * Boreeas kicks TheNoodle
#824 [17:05] <TheOldOne> :D
#825 [17:05] <TheNoodle> ;kick TheOldOne
#826 [17:05] <TheNoodle> !kick TheOldOne
#827 [17:05] * AuBot kicked TheOldOne from #minecrafthelp (Reason: heOldOne :I love you too! <3 (Issued by TheNoodle with reason: None given.))
#828 [17:05] <TheNoodle> I still have aubot though :P
#829 [17:05] <ShaRose> tut tut
#830 [17:05] <Boreeas> Kick-by-hostname should be possible
#831 [17:06] <Boreeas> ;kick *!*@*
#832 [17:06] <WugBot> *!*@* is not in the channel.
#833 [17:06] <Boreeas> WugBot, derp
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#844 [18:25] <DopeGhoti> Sigh.
#845 [18:25] <DopeGhoti> google should just hire me as a very slow version of I'm Feeling Lucky.
#846 [18:26] <DopeGhoti> Several times, cow-orkers have come to me with questions answered by the top google hit for the two important words in their questions.
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#848 [18:33] <redstonehelper> lol
#849 [18:34] <WuggsBoson> lol @ cow orkers
#850 [18:34] <redstonehelper> lol
#851 [18:37] <DopeGhoti> Yeah, you know.
#852 [18:37] <DopeGhoti> People that ork cows?
#853 [18:37] * erroch [erroch@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#854 [18:42] <Scott> I think cow porkers is worse.
#855 [18:42] <DopeGhoti> Are. Cow porkers are worse. Unless they're bulls.
#856 [18:43] <Scott> shhhh
#857 [18:43] <Scott> i'm nom'ing
#858 [18:43] <DopeGhoti> though bovines using porcine metaphors is an odd thought.
#859 [18:43] <Scott> I don't care about grammar while stuffing my face.
#860 [18:43] * Milokliz [Milokliz@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#861 [18:44] <Scott> Do you wear glasses DopeGhoti?
#862 [18:44] <DopeGhoti> Only when I'm not sleeping.
#863 [18:44] <Scott> Do you feel naked without them?
#864 [18:44] <DopeGhoti> Not really; I'm too busy feeling blind.
#865 [18:44] <Scott> nice
#866 [18:45] <Scott> I got glasses Monday and I feel weird without them already.
#867 [18:45] <Milokliz> hello
#868 [18:45] <DopeGhoti> Morning, Milokliz
#869 [18:45] <Scott> I'm not sure if I like glasses or contacts better
#870 [18:45] <DopeGhoti> I've worn glasses for nearly as long as I can remember.
#871 [18:46] <DopeGhoti> I cannot tolerate even the thought of wearing contacts. I've always been paranoid about my eyes, and the thought of deliberately poking myself in the eye twice a day does not appeal to me.
#872 [18:46] <DopeGhoti> Even seeing others putting them in or taking them out makes me shudder.
#873 [18:46] <Scott> I can see without any corrective lenses but it's blurry unless I'm within a few feet.
#874 [18:47] <DopeGhoti> I'm so nearsighted it's downright comical.
#875 [18:47] <Scott> I can't read the TV guide while in bed without them. :s
#876 [18:47] <DopeGhoti> Nor would I be able to.
#877 [18:47] <DopeGhoti> (they still publish TV Guide? Wow.)
#878 [18:48] <Scott> I mean on the TV.
#879 [18:48] <Scott> You know.. the channel selector? lol
#880 [18:48] <DopeGhoti> *snrk*
#881 [18:48] <Milokliz> i still have teletext
#882 [18:48] <Milokliz> ftw
#883 [18:48] <DopeGhoti> I wouldn't be able to read anything on any screen, even if blown up to an absurdly large size.
#884 [18:48] <Milokliz> its nice and big
#885 [18:48] <Scott> lol
#886 [18:49] <Scott> I have a very odd question for you DopeGhoti.
#887 [18:49] <DopeGhoti> You know the typical eye charts? I know that the first row is 'E' only because of tradition.
#888 [18:49] <Omega_Guardian> is so bad when even the cable tv dvr show listing thing is wrong sometimes. And doesn't show even the most basic info for a show if it's more then 4-5 days away from being aired
#889 [18:49] <Scott> Feel free to decline.
#890 [18:49] <DopeGhoti> Fire away.
#891 [18:49] <Omega_Guardian> like the info said the original War of the Worlds was gonna be shown, had the right cast listing and stuff...but it was the Tom Cruise version
#892 [18:49] <Scott> Given your lack of vision, do you wear glasses during intimate moments? lol
#893 [18:50] <Milokliz> thats a good question
#894 [18:50] <DopeGhoti> If they are occurring during the day, sometimes yess, unless K. removes them.
#895 [18:50] <Scott> I see!
#896 [18:50] <DopeGhoti> So do I, until they're removed.
#897 [18:50] <Milokliz> haha
#898 [18:51] <DopeGhoti> True story: K and I have probably spent a cumulative few hours looking for wherever my glasses landed after being hastily diacardrd.
#899 [18:51] <Scott> lolol.
#900 [18:52] <DopeGhoti> Is there any way to laugh out loud, than out loud? :p
#901 [18:52] <Scott> Yes.
#902 [18:53] <Scott> Wow. My mouth is on fire.
#903 [18:54] <Scott> I didn't think this spicy arrabiata sauce was actually spicy.
#904 [18:55] <Milokliz> it means mad on italian
#905 [18:55] <DopeGhoti> relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1KvLOZuvxc
#906 [18:55] <Scott> I've been driving without corrective lenses.
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#908 [18:55] <Scott> I have no idea how I haven't crashed.
#909 [18:55] <Milokliz> i mean angry... pissed...
#910 [18:55] <Scott> My eye doc was like… are you driving without contacts?
#911 [18:55] <Scott> I quietly answered yes and she was not happy.
#912 [18:55] <DopeGhoti> Heh.
#913 [18:56] <Milokliz> where do you live scott
#914 [18:56] <DopeGhoti> Thank you for a> not killing anyone, and b> not getting killed.
#915 [18:56] <Scott> Milokliz: in the US.
#916 [18:56] <Scott> My drivers license has a requirement for corrective lenses too. I'm glad I never got pulled over.
#917 [18:56] <Milokliz> yep i wanted to ask that
#918 [18:57] <Scott> DopeGhoti: Yeah tell me about it.
#919 [18:57] <Scott> I can barely drive now though.
#920 [18:57] <Milokliz> cause we have those too, if you got pulled over, you ll pay massive cash for not havin' glasses
#921 [18:57] <Scott> I was driving to my cousin's house a few days ago and I had to pass farm equipment. I seen oncoming traffic and nearly froze.
#922 [18:58] <DopeGhoti> o.O
#923 [18:58] <Scott> My mom's crash was a head on collision.
#924 [18:58] <DopeGhoti> .. ):
#925 [18:58] * DopeGhoti 's grandmother was in a pretty nasty head-on crash a few years before she died.
#925 [18:58] <DopeGhoti> those are no fun.
#926 [18:59] <Scott> yeah...
#927 [18:59] <Scott> She died 50 minutes after the crash. :(
#928 [18:59] <Scott> They told me she didn't suffer but they failed to tell me that.
#929 [18:59] <Scott> I don't know if I believe them or not.
#930 [18:59] <Scott> I think I'm going to hunt down the EMTs and call them.
#931 [19:00] <Milokliz> body induces shock in those situations, you fell no pain
#932 [19:00] <WuggsBoson> Scott: honestly, its probably better that you dont
#933 [19:00] <DopeGhoti> I hope that they weren't just being kind do you. Still sucks either way.
#934 [19:00] <Scott> She died from… blunt forced trauma.
#935 [19:00] <DopeGhoti> (.."force")
#936 [19:00] <Scott> That was the reason on the death certificate.
#937 [19:01] <Scott> Yesterday was 4 weeks.
#938 [19:01] <DopeGhoti> FWIW, it may not get better per se, but it does get easier.
#939 [19:02] <Scott> That is what people keep saying.
#940 [19:02] <DopeGhoti> I have the 'benefit' of speaking from experience. I miss the f[bleep]ck out of my grandparents.
#941 [19:03] <andrewxios> 5 relatives from me died in less than 4 years and my dad got a heart attack, that kind of stuff sucks
#942 [19:03] <Scott> Mine aren't dealing with the death well at all.
#943 [19:04] <Scott> I made my grandmother go buy tons of tampons and volunteer with me this afternoon so she wouldn't be alone.
#944 [19:04] <DopeGhoti> Is your grandmother very young, or just a mutant?
#945 [19:05] <Milokliz> guess young, menopause kiks in around 50 ish...
#946 [19:06] <Scott> We donated them :P
#947 [19:06] <Milokliz> or we are totaly missing the point
#948 [19:06] <Milokliz> yeah...
#949 [19:06] <Scott> 32 boxes
#950 [19:06] <Scott> or 576 tampons
#951 [19:06] <Scott> xD
#952 [19:06] <Scott> We looked rather odd buying so many.
#953 [19:06] <Milokliz> you volunteer by giving free tampons around
#954 [19:06] * tsiar [tsiar@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#955 [19:06] <Milokliz> that sounds odd
#956 [19:07] <Scott> I volunteer at a local charity that gives things to people who need them.
#957 [19:07] <Scott> Feminine products are rarely donated.
#958 [19:07] <Milokliz> aha cool
#959 [19:07] <Milokliz> whats the word... for.. you know.. alternative to tampons
#960 [19:07] <Milokliz> normal stuff.. that 'always' brand
#961 [19:08] <Scott> Pads? lol
#962 [19:08] <Milokliz> english is not my first lang
#963 [19:08] <DopeGhoti> Sanitary napkins, or pads, or liners
#964 [19:08] <Milokliz> yeah pads lol
#965 [19:08] <DopeGhoti> depending on your region
#966 [19:08] <Scott> I am so glad I won't ever have a girlfriend/wifey.
#967 [19:08] <Milokliz> lines, pads.. i heard those
#968 [19:08] <Milokliz> liners*
#969 [19:08] <Milokliz> Scott: why not
#970 [19:09] <Milokliz> priest?
#971 [19:09] <Scott> Milokliz: because I have a fiancé.
#972 [19:09] <Scott> fiancé = male.
#973 [19:09] <Scott> fiancée = female
#974 [19:09] <Milokliz> aha homosexual couple
#975 [19:09] <Milokliz> can you get maried where you live
#976 [19:10] <Scott> you can just say gay. homosexual sounds negative. :s
#977 [19:10] <Milokliz> not to me
#978 [19:10] <Scott> and yes, we can get married in Canada.
#979 [19:10] <Milokliz> gay sounds... happy
#980 [19:10] <Milokliz> :D
#981 [19:10] <Milokliz> mary...
#982 [19:11] <Milokliz> you are Scott the Dick
#983 [19:11] <Milokliz> (south park reference)
#984 [19:12] <Milokliz> you can also have medicinal marihuana in canada
#985 [19:12] <Milokliz> actualy canada is kickass
#986 [19:14] <andrewxios> canada > australia > usa
#987 [19:14] <Scott> Australia is where the criminals go.
#988 [19:14] <Milokliz> haha
#989 [19:14] <Milokliz> :D
#990 [19:14] <Milokliz> you know history
#991 [19:14] <andrewxios> australia rules ! <-<
#992 [19:15] <Milokliz> andrewxios: what was that, listed by awesomeness
#993 [19:15] <Milokliz> or... tolerance to drugs usage
#994 [19:15] <Milokliz> hardly
#995 [19:17] <andrewxios> listed by stupidness of the gov xD
#996 [19:17] <Milokliz> lol
#997 [19:17] * Toagac|gtfoCISPA [Toagac|gtfoCISPA@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#998 [19:17] <andrewxios> inverted ofc bc you cant beat usa on that xD
#999 [19:19] <andrewxios> appearently atheists are the most hated minority in the us
#1000 [19:20] <Milokliz> wow
#1001 [19:20] <Milokliz> its that a fact?
#1002 [19:20] <andrewxios> http://newsjunkiepost.com/2009/09/19/research-finds-that-atheists-are-most-hated-and-distrusted-minority/
#1003 [19:20] <andrewxios> from 2009 idk if thats any better now
#1004 [19:21] <Milokliz> doubt it :D
#1005 [19:22] <Milokliz> I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group…. Atheist 47.6%
#1006 [19:22] <Milokliz> where the fuck did they do that interviews
#1007 [19:22] * AuBot kicked Milokliz from #minecrafthelp (Reason: ilokliz :Please keep it civil.)
#1008 [19:23] <andrewxios> see not believing in bs makes you hated, that is so paradox that i actually wish the earth is exploding this year xD
#1009 [19:23] * Milokliz [Milokliz@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1010 [19:24] <Milokliz> post that link on reddit
#1011 [19:24] <oldtopman> Milokliz: Ignore the overreactive bot
#1012 [19:24] <DopeGhoti> you'll get downvoted for reposting, I'm sure.
#1013 [19:25] <Milokliz> not if you post it on r/atheism
#1014 [19:25] <Milokliz> they will be happy that ppl hate em
#1015 [19:25] <Milokliz> :D
#1016 [19:26] <Milokliz> aha, i forgot that i dont have my reddit buddy addon here
#1017 [19:26] <Milokliz> shows you if the link has been posted
#1018 [19:26] <Milokliz> so probably is repost
#1019 [19:31] <clarjon1> WuggsBoson:
#1020 [19:31] <WuggsBoson> mm/?
#1021 [19:35] <andrewxios> im actually scared to talk about that stuff, people are like raging over that subject
#1022 [19:36] <Milokliz> about reposts
#1023 [19:36] <Milokliz> jk
#1024 [19:36] <andrewxios> xD yea that maybe too
#1025 [19:36] * Allison [Allison@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1026 [19:37] <andrewxios> i do the same what they do to muslims, every religious person is a potential danger to me
#1027 [19:39] <Milokliz> you like to debate them?
#1028 [19:39] <Milokliz> i have a buddy that does that
#1029 [19:39] <Milokliz> crazy guy
#1030 [19:39] <andrewxios> no they scare the shit out of me, when they talk i feel like having a gun with me xD
#1031 [19:39] <Milokliz> :D
#1032 [19:39] * Iguana_ [Iguana_@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1033 [19:41] <andrewxios> i respect buddhists though, what they have is technically not even a religion
#1034 [19:41] <Milokliz> dont know much about buddhism i must admit
#1035 [19:41] <Milokliz> never met one
#1036 [19:43] <andrewxios> what most people dont even understand is that muslims and christians actually believe in the same, different story teller same fairy tale
#1037 [19:44] <DopeGhoti> Actually, it's better than that
#1038 [19:44] <DopeGhoti> The Koran basically says "Okay, I sent you Jesus, and you fscking ignored him. Here's Prophet 2.0. Get it right this time."
#1039 [19:45] * __EricReitz__ [__EricReitz__@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1040 [19:45] <DopeGhoti> If only religious fundamentalists would concentrate more on the 'fun' and less on the 'mental', the world would be a much better place overall.
#1041 [19:46] <andrewxios> and i find it quite shocking that atheists know alot more about religion than religious people do
#1042 [19:46] <DopeGhoti> We nontheists are a scientifically-minded bunch, and try to do the research.
#1043 [19:47] <DopeGhoti> Personally, to me, the militant atheists are just as bad as religious zealots, though.
#1044 [19:47] <Scott> I bought these today: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9631803/tools.jpg
#1045 [19:47] <andrewxios> they have to be militant, religious people never let them choose what way to go
#1046 [19:47] <Scott> I wasn't planning on buying any but I saw them and I always need small screwdrivers for something. It was a whole $1.
#1047 [19:47] <DopeGhoti> What? No Torx? You got ripped off, scott.
#1048 [19:48] <DopeGhoti> andrewxios: we might need to come to a common definition of 'militant atheist' then.
#1049 [19:48] <Scott> Well it was just a $1 lol
#1050 [19:48] <andrewxios> you mean like shooting people n stuff?
#1051 [19:49] <Milokliz> yeah they look like 1$
#1052 [19:49] <Milokliz> :D
#1053 [19:49] <DopeGhoti> (those are actally generally pretty good screwdrivers. Just don't do what I did and use the small flathead 'driver for opening packages, or you'll discover as I did that it went from a | to a C.
#1054 [19:49] * [L] [[L]@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1055 [19:50] <DopeGhoti> andrewxios: no, I mean the type that insists on trying to convert theists to atheists. They're literally exactly as bad as the theists who insist on 'saving' or converting every atheist they encounter.
#1056 [19:50] <Scott> Speaking of which
#1057 [19:51] <WuggsBoson> yep lol
#1058 [19:51] <DopeGhoti> IMO, if you're against religion, then don't have one, but don't get all up in my area about it. If three-year-olds can have imaginary friends, so can 33-year-olds.
#1059 [19:51] <andrewxios> you know what i dont really care, they did the same thing on mexico, the philippines and africa, you cant just sit there and let them do shit with our world
#1060 [19:51] <Scott> I am so tired of people telling me to talk to and seek comfort from god about my mother.
#1061 [19:52] <DopeGhoti> You'll notice I offered no such advice. If you want to seek comfort, seek it from your friends or your fond memories. or from comfortable furniture.
#1062 [19:52] <Scott> It is so annoying.
#1063 [19:52] <Milokliz> Scott: they probably mean no harm, its just their way...
#1064 [19:52] <Scott> I went to a grief support group last week and it turned out to be nothing but religious BS.
#1065 [19:52] <Milokliz> say tnx and ignore... all you can do
#1066 [19:52] <andrewxios> when people offer religion instead of support, something has gone wrong
#1067 [19:52] <Scott> They started talking about judgement day and even sexual immorality.
#1068 [19:52] <DopeGhoti> *headdesk*
#1069 [19:53] <WuggsBoson> I bet that went over real well
#1070 [19:53] <WuggsBoson> all circumstances considered
#1071 [19:53] <DopeGhoti> And thanks for playing "Missing The Point Entirely"!
#1072 [19:53] <Milokliz> support groups... what did you expect :(
#1073 [19:53] <DopeGhoti> ..support?
#1074 [19:53] <DopeGhoti> or Marla Singer?
#1075 [19:53] <Scott> I expected people to actually say things that would help.
#1076 [19:54] <andrewxios> and i meant to say that about the missionaries xD
#1077 [19:54] <DopeGhoti> My mother once had to call the police to remove some missionaries who had entered our home without permission and refused to leave.
#1078 [19:54] <ShaRose> mollstam / Wug / JNZ http://sharose.titanpad.com/1
#1079 [19:55] <Scott> Did she have them arrested for trespassing?
#1080 [19:55] <DopeGhoti> (fortunately, there were about 20 off-duty police in the back yard having a cookout, so the wait was short)
#1081 [19:55] <Milokliz> DopeGhoti: haha what were they promoting?
#1082 [19:55] <ShaRose> lol DopeGhoti
#1083 [19:55] <DopeGhoti> the called the police literrally, by calling 'Police!'
#1084 [19:55] <Scott> My old address was blacklisted by the mormons.
#1085 [19:56] <Scott> I made out with a boy in front of them.
#1086 [19:56] <ShaRose> LOL
#1087 [19:56] <Milokliz> Scott: thats a nice achievment
#1088 [19:56] <DopeGhoti> It's awful in Arizona. It's gotten to the point where not only do I not answer my door on Sundays; I turn off the doorbell.
#1089 [19:56] <DopeGhoti> It's like a Mormon hotbed of prottelitization.
#1090 [19:56] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: I dont see why we're encrypting encrypted thinga
#1091 [19:56] <DopeGhoti> er, prostelyzation
#1092 [19:56] <andrewxios> some jehovah's witnesses where at my door and it was a hot girls xD wtf
#1093 [19:57] <andrewxios> two*
#1094 [19:57] <Scott> its a trap
#1095 [19:57] <ShaRose> reminds me of that story on r/atheism where some dude opened the door naked with porn in the background with blood on his hands "What? you are interrupting my satanic ritual" or something
#1096 [19:57] <Milokliz> :D
#1097 [19:57] <DopeGhoti> andrewxios: there's a sect that knows how to advertise, I guess?
#1098 [19:57] <Milokliz> ShaRose: i actualy remember that
#1099 [19:57] <Milokliz> lol
#1100 [19:58] <andrewxios> yea i guess xD but that bs makes them unsexy
#1101 [19:59] <ShaRose> Wug it's there to fix something said by JNZ more than anything (assuming you were referring to AEP / TEP)
#1102 [19:59] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: unless you can make a really, really convincing argument why you shouldnt just do the password exchange over https, then do it over https
#1103 [19:59] <ShaRose> it's for speed
#1104 [19:59] <WuggsBoson> it saves a hell of a lot of typing
#1105 [19:59] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: lets focus on the PROBLEM
#1106 [20:00] <WuggsBoson> the problem is not that logins are slow
#1107 [20:00] <WuggsBoson> theyre plenty fast, like less than a second
#1108 [20:00] <ShaRose> what's the problem of fixing two problems at once
#1109 [20:00] <WuggsBoson> the PROBLEM is that there is a horrendous man in the middle attack in a different part of the protocol
#1110 [20:00] <ShaRose> also, just noticed something
#1111 [20:01] <WuggsBoson> you do realize that its looking more and more like an exchange that could be simplified by just using https
#1112 [20:01] <WuggsBoson> which does all of that under the hood, a key exchange and encrypted transmission
#1113 [20:01] <ShaRose> https would require the minecraft server needing a signed cert in order to be secure
#1114 [20:02] <WuggsBoson> this is the auth server
#1115 [20:02] <WuggsBoson> the auth server already has one
#1116 [20:02] <ShaRose> yes I know this
#1117 [20:02] <WuggsBoson> I'm only talking about the initial login
#1118 [20:02] <ShaRose> I'm fixing the following: Using a certificate for the user. Making a more secure 'save password' option for the user. Increasing login speed. Solving the MITM attack.
#1119 [20:03] <ShaRose> oh and making server login faster too
#1120 [20:03] <WuggsBoson> which can be simplified to "get signed certificate from trent over https, supplying username and password"
#1121 [20:03] <andrewxios> i know AES but what is AEP?
#1122 [20:03] <WuggsBoson> the current save password option is fine
#1123 [20:04] <WuggsBoson> there is no point in adding more than one good layer of protection
#1124 [20:04] <WuggsBoson> at that point youre just wasting cycles
#1125 [20:04] <ShaRose> it saves the password encrypted with a hardcoded key
#1126 [20:04] <ShaRose> and 14B is actually easier on the server anyways
#1127 [20:05] <WuggsBoson> we dont need to add any more quantities that can be stolen
#1128 [20:05] <WuggsBoson> just the one way is fine
#1129 [20:06] <WuggsBoson> simplicity of implementation is a part here. the more complicated the exchange is, the more ways it will be able to fail
#1130 [20:06] <ShaRose> It's actually not that complex a protocol
#1131 [20:06] <WuggsBoson> see also
#1132 [20:06] <WuggsBoson> if all thats needed to login is ALC
#1133 [20:06] <ShaRose> and alice's private key
#1134 [20:07] <WuggsBoson> no, alices public key
#1135 [20:07] <WuggsBoson> APK
#1136 [20:07] <ShaRose> even then, that's only if you implement the OPTIONAL 14B
#1137 [20:07] <WuggsBoson> stop trying to be overimaginitive
#1138 [20:07] <WuggsBoson> you should be looking for the simplest possible sound solution
#1139 [20:08] <ShaRose> that solves all the issues I can think of with the protocol and is overall simpler than what we currently have
#1140 [20:08] * rmsy [rmsy@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1141 [20:09] <WuggsBoson> I also fail to see how updating a signature on an existing certificate is really any harder than just making a new one
#1142 [20:10] <ShaRose> it's faster, and does the same thing
#1143 [20:10] <ShaRose> it's a trival complaint though
#1144 [20:10] <ShaRose> actually, I didn't specify update the validity timeframe
#1145 [20:11] * ShaRose fixes that
#1145 [20:11] <WuggsBoson> how is it faster
#1146 [20:11] <WuggsBoson> especially because doing certificates in java is complicated
#1147 [20:11] <WuggsBoson> there is no built in stuff to do iy
#1148 [20:12] <ShaRose> I didn't say it had to be full on x509
#1149 [20:12] <ShaRose> it can be a 'certificate' if you just split shit with a line break
#1150 [20:12] <WuggsBoson> which one is harder
#1151 [20:12] <WuggsBoson> signing a certificate or remembering a number
#1152 [20:13] <ShaRose> remembering a number would probably slower actually :V
#1153 [20:13] <WuggsBoson> but in order to make a certificate you have to remember lots of numbers
#1154 [20:13] <ShaRose> any idea how crazy fast it is to sign a certificate
#1155 [20:13] <WuggsBoson> nowhere near as fast as assigning a long
#1156 [20:14] <ShaRose> assigning a long to an sql server and then pulling it again every time the client tries to connect
#1157 [20:14] <WuggsBoson> the difference is like comparing increment to floating point division
#1158 [20:14] <ShaRose> twice
#1159 [20:14] <WuggsBoson> there is that
#1160 [20:15] <WuggsBoson> whether it would be better depends on how often clients try to connect to smp servers per login
#1161 [20:15] <ShaRose> oh and don't forget that it also has to temporarily store a server key too
#1162 [20:15] <WuggsBoson> its all stored in one record and accessed by one lookup
#1163 [20:15] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson doesn't matter, chance are overall it'd either be the same or faster
#1164 [20:15] <ShaRose> depending on if mojang uses hardware ssl offloading
#1165 [20:16] <ShaRose> if they don't that protocol will be by far faster
#1166 [20:16] <ShaRose> if they don't it'll probably be about the same
#1167 [20:16] <WuggsBoson> oh god I now know what it feels like to be an amputee
#1168 [20:16] * jkr [jkr@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1169 [20:16] <WuggsBoson> I just sat on my leg for waaaay too long
#1170 [20:16] <WuggsBoson> and then I stood up
#1171 [20:16] <WuggsBoson> and it was just gone
#1172 [20:16] <WuggsBoson> zero feeling
#1173 [20:16] <WuggsBoson> it was like being propped up on a crutch
#1174 [20:17] <WuggsBoson> everything past the thigh was totally numb
#1175 [20:19] <ShaRose> as a rough example Wug, signing a message with RSA is literally just raising a hash to the power of a number. Would you say 8000 cycles of Shamir's secret sharing with K = 1024 and k=2, single threaded, on my home computer would be an example?
#1176 [20:19] <ShaRose> 8000 / 8000 rounds (K = 2, 1024 bit keys) passed, completed in 00:00:00.6165388
#1177 [20:20] <WuggsBoson> .. so thats .6 second
#1178 [20:20] <ShaRose> yep.
#1179 [20:20] <WuggsBoson> thats a rate of 100/minute
#1180 [20:20] <WuggsBoson> and the login server has to handle .. what, 15000/min?
#1181 [20:21] <ShaRose> minecraft forums gets 8000 a second
#1182 [20:21] <WuggsBoson> so it will need to be 150x faster
#1183 [20:21] <ShaRose> I just did 8000 in 0.6 seconds
#1184 [20:21] <WuggsBoson> oooooh ok
#1185 [20:21] <ShaRose> and this is using an old build of gmplib on windows
#1186 [20:21] <ShaRose> and it's x86
#1187 [20:22] <ShaRose> x64 version would be a hell of a lot fater
#1188 [20:22] <ShaRose> faster*
#1189 [20:22] * Dan [Dan@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1190 [20:22] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: now see how many longs you can assign per second
#1191 [20:23] * ShaRose doesn't have an sql server handy
#1191 [20:23] <WuggsBoson> you dont need one
#1192 [20:23] * ShaRose and also notes that's running full shamir's secret sharing, involving generating a key, generating the shares, and recombining the shares, which ALL use lots of math
#1192 [20:23] * Silent [Silent@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1193 [20:23] <WuggsBoson> there are 26 million minecraft accounts
#1194 [20:24] <WuggsBoson> you could hold a 64 bit value for each of them in a few hundred megs of ram
#1195 [20:24] <WuggsBoson> the username and password lookup has to be from an sql database anyway
#1196 [20:24] <ShaRose> mmm
#1197 [20:24] <WuggsBoson> you're not going to get away from using one
#1198 [20:25] <ShaRose> I know, and that's probably the slowest point
#1199 [20:25] <ShaRose> for both protocols
#1200 [20:25] * Zyferus [Zyferus@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1201 [20:25] <WuggsBoson> qed, theres no point in bothering to mess with it
#1202 [20:25] <WuggsBoson> https is totally fine
#1203 [20:25] <ShaRose> but https is slower still
#1204 [20:25] <andrewxios> MQQ ftw xD
#1205 [20:25] <ShaRose> andrewxios?
#1206 [20:26] * |8bitben|Away [|8bitben|Away@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1207 [20:26] <andrewxios> http://eprint.iacr.org/2008/339.pdf
#1208 [20:28] <ShaRose> haven't heard of it
#1209 [20:28] * ShaRose reads
#1209 [20:29] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: I can do an https negotiation with google in .01s
#1210 [20:29] <WuggsBoson> as you pointed out, the majority of that time is waiting for the other party to reply
#1211 [20:29] <ShaRose> and
#1212 [20:30] * jkr [jkr@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1213 [20:30] <WuggsBoson> .01 SECONDS IS FINE
#1214 [20:30] <ShaRose> https via tls involves 4 handshakes
#1215 [20:30] <ShaRose> that involves 1
#1216 [20:30] <ShaRose> and uses fewer resources
#1217 [20:31] <ShaRose> there is literally no argument for https except it's easier
#1218 [20:33] <WuggsBoson> thats a pretty big whopping argument
#1219 [20:33] <WuggsBoson> especially because its a LOT easier
#1220 [20:33] * Deleters [Deleters@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1221 [20:34] <ShaRose> god forbid, we'll have to write a few methods now!
#1222 [20:34] <DopeGhoti> uh
#1223 [20:34] <ShaRose> it's only a
#1224 [20:34] <ShaRose> 'lot' easier if you have to write a LOT of code
#1225 [20:34] <DopeGhoti> you do realize that there are SSL libraries for just about every language this side of COBOL, right?
#1226 [20:35] <DopeGhoti> And that HTTPS libraries just pass through to the SSL libs for the SSL/TLS negotiations?
#1227 [20:35] <ShaRose> DopeGhoti yes, I'm saying to not use ssl for speed and resource usage
#1228 [20:35] <DopeGhoti> And instead, use?
#1229 [20:35] <ShaRose> DopeGhoti you didn't read the protocol we are arguing about did you
#1230 [20:35] <DopeGhoti> (sorry, I'm at work; I jumped in midstream here)
#1231 [20:36] <ShaRose> http://sharose.titanpad.com/1 DopeGhoti
#1232 [20:36] <DopeGhoti> So you're proposing public key autentication for the Minecraft client?
#1233 [20:36] <DopeGhoti> I approve.
#1234 [20:37] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: without properly secure communication between the auth server and the client, then a man in the middle attack becomes possible there
#1235 [20:37] <WuggsBoson> I could, for example, pretend to be the auth server in your version of the protocol
#1236 [20:37] <ShaRose> except there IS properly secure authentication
#1237 [20:37] <DopeGhoti> No, because the man in the middle would not be able to provide the proper server fingerprint.
#1238 [20:37] <ShaRose> both Alice and Bob get a verified copy of Trent's public key
#1239 [20:37] <ShaRose> it would validate the key in exactly the same way ssl does
#1240 [20:38] <WuggsBoson> this is before bob
#1241 [20:38] <ShaRose> exactly
#1242 [20:38] <WuggsBoson> so I'm Eve
#1243 [20:38] <DopeGhoti> Bob and Alice both only talk to Trent.
#1244 [20:38] <ShaRose> I just said both get it beforehand to save time
#1245 [20:38] <WuggsBoson> I sit between the Trent and Alice
#1246 [20:38] <Eddie> I'm Eddie. Nice to meet you.
#1247 [20:38] <WuggsBoson> I send you my public key
#1248 [20:38] <ShaRose> lol
#1249 [20:38] * Eddie divides by zero
#1249 [20:38] <WuggsBoson> and you happily send my your password, specially encrypted so only I can read it
#1250 [20:39] <WuggsBoson> the reason https uses all of those handshakes is to VERIFY THE IDENTITY OF THE REMOTE SERVER
#1251 [20:39] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson and it fails verification because it's not signed by a valid authority
#1252 [20:39] <ShaRose> and it doesn't
#1253 [20:39] <ShaRose> literally
#1254 [20:39] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: a public key isnt signed
#1255 [20:39] <WuggsBoson> if you meant a certificate you should have stated as such
#1256 [20:39] <DopeGhoti> You don't understand how public key authentication works very well, Wug, it seems.
#1257 [20:39] <DopeGhoti> A certificate _is_ a public/private keypair
#1258 [20:39] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson read a certificate
#1259 [20:39] <WuggsBoson> no, its not
#1260 [20:39] <DopeGhoti> yes, it is
#1261 [20:39] <ShaRose> DopeGhoti no, it's not actually
#1262 [20:39] <WuggsBoson> you dont put the private key in a certificate
#1263 [20:40] <WuggsBoson> the certificate is proof of identification
#1264 [20:40] <DopeGhoti> No, the server holds the private key
#1265 [20:40] <ShaRose> TPK should be included in a full certificate like how HTTPS reads it
#1266 [20:40] <ShaRose> IE with a chain of trust
#1267 [20:40] <WuggsBoson> your specification just says "trents public key"
#1268 [20:41] <WuggsBoson> in order to be more secure than that you'd need other handshakes to verify that it was actually trents
#1269 [20:41] <ShaRose> I also said verifies it
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#1271 [20:41] <ShaRose> and you wouldn't need handshakes
#1272 [20:41] <WuggsBoson> "First, Alice generates a random nonce known as ARN. She then encrypts her Password using this Nonce as the key, the result of which is known as AEP. Then, she encrypts the Nonce and the encrypted password using TPK. This result is known as TEP."
#1273 [20:41] <WuggsBoson> nowhere does this say "verifies TPK"
#1274 [20:42] <ShaRose> watch in amazement as you can download minecraft.net's certificate to a single file, and WITHOUT ANY INTERNET TRAFFIC, verify that it's valid for login.minecraft.net
#1275 [20:42] <ShaRose> Before anything happens, Alice generates an RSA Keypair and both Alice and Bob get a verified copy of Trent's public key.
#1276 [20:42] <WuggsBoson> now watch in amazement as the man in the middle substitutes his own
#1277 [20:42] * |8bitben|Away [|8bitben|Away@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1278 [20:42] <ShaRose> it's literally the first line
#1279 [20:42] <ShaRose> after explaining the roles
#1280 [20:42] <WuggsBoson> "get a copy"
#1281 [20:42] <DopeGhoti> WuggsBoson: The MITM cann't generate a valid key as it won't match the host fingerprint
#1282 [20:42] <WuggsBoson> so they do a dns resolution on "login.minecraft.net"
#1283 [20:43] <WuggsBoson> which I poison to point to me instead
#1284 [20:43] <DopeGhoti> and then you get an invalid key error.
#1285 [20:43] <ShaRose> AND YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A SIGNED CERTIFICATE.
#1286 [20:43] <WuggsBoson> YOU DONT SAY CERTIFICATE ANYWHERE
#1287 [20:43] <WuggsBoson> "Trent's public key will be known as TPK."
#1288 [20:43] <DopeGhoti> CERTIFICATES ARE KEYS
#1289 [20:43] <WuggsBoson> no, certificates HAVE keys
#1290 [20:43] <DopeGhoti> (simplifying here)
#1291 [20:43] <WuggsBoson> key does not imply certificate
#1292 [20:43] <WuggsBoson> though the converse is true
#1293 [20:44] <DopeGhoti> no, but cert implies key
#1294 [20:44] <WuggsBoson> thats the thing, it DOESNT SAY CERT
#1295 [20:44] <ShaRose> I said verified copy. By this I implicitly said either A) Get a copy from Login.minecraft.net and do verification with the certificate it gets or B) read the cert from a cache
#1296 [20:44] <DopeGhoti> if Server A has a cert (or key), and Server B tries to clone it, it will fail because the fingerprint of the server will not match that of the host for which the cert (or key) was issued.
#1297 [20:44] <ShaRose> if you want to be anal about it fine, I'll say ~certificate~ but that doesn't change the fact it's secure
#1298 [20:45] <WuggsBoson> DopeGhoti: certificates exist to address the fact that keys do not provide authentication
#1299 [20:45] <ShaRose> Before anything happens, Alice generates an RSA Keypair and both Alice and Bob get a verified copy of Trent's public key wrapped in a certificate with full chain of trust signatures resolved which is also fully valid for login.minecraft.net.
#1300 [20:45] <WuggsBoson> you can use a certificate to prove that you're you
#1301 [20:45] <ShaRose> happy now?
#1302 [20:45] <DopeGhoti> no, chains of trust exists to fulfil that need.
#1303 [20:46] <ShaRose> you literally just argued with me because I saved time by saying validated copy
#1304 [20:46] <WuggsBoson> I once again point out
#1305 [20:46] <ShaRose> when it was totally obvious what I meant by that
#1306 [20:46] <WuggsBoson> there is no point in saving time
#1307 [20:46] <WuggsBoson> the HTTPS part works fine
#1308 [20:46] <WuggsBoson> and its not slow or anything, you're addressing a made up problem
#1309 [20:46] <WuggsBoson> the problem is that anyone can jump in and take control of an smp session
#1310 [20:46] <WuggsBoson> not that logging in takes too long
#1311 [20:46] <WuggsBoson> https is fine
#1312 [20:46] <DopeGhoti> WuggsBoson: wait a damm second
#1313 [20:47] <DopeGhoti> the MC login servers turn plaid and fall over every time there's an fscking release
#1314 [20:47] <DopeGhoti> and you're saying extra HTTPS traffic is not a problem?
#1315 [20:47] <WuggsBoson> they do that randomly anyway
#1316 [20:47] <WuggsBoson> I never have issues with them
#1317 [20:48] <ShaRose> DopeGhoti don't forget that this method lets SMP work fine as long as you've logged in in the past few days whether they login server is up or not
#1318 [20:48] <ShaRose> that's kind of a big deal as well
#1319 [20:48] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: stop trying to distract from the topic
#1320 [20:48] <WuggsBoson> the same is true regardless of whether the initial login is done over https or something more complex
#1321 [20:48] <ShaRose> the topic is a new login protocol, I am discussing the login protocol
#1322 [20:49] <ShaRose> I specified not using https for speed purposes, if mojang doesn't like it they can EASILY just pass the signed certificate over https if they so please and the protocol stays essentially unchanged
#1323 [20:50] <ShaRose> you want to keep https and whining about not being specific is literally the only thing you are whining about
#1324 [20:50] <WuggsBoson> that brings me to mention that the protocol is exactly the same as the one we agreed on last, with the exception of the initial login
#1325 [20:50] <DiskDaemon> not using https though is a fundamental security problem
#1326 [20:50] <ShaRose> DiskDaemon no, it's not
#1327 [20:50] <ShaRose> read the protocol
#1328 [20:51] <DiskDaemon> that's what I've come to know via Steve Gibson anyhow.
#1329 [20:51] <DopeGhoti> !topic add New Humble Bundle; go forth and be charitable.
#1330 [20:51] <WuggsBoson> not encrypting it somehow is a security problem
#1331 [20:51] <WuggsBoson> at this point, its encrypted somehow. there is a larger here, the specific focus of the protocol revision
#1332 [20:51] <DopeGhoti> DiskDaemon: "No, we should be using Perfect Paper Passwords, then!"
#1333 [20:52] <ShaRose> ^
#1334 [20:52] <WuggsBoson> we dont hear people complaining about how logins are slow
#1335 [20:52] <ShaRose> because there's nothing complaining can do about it
#1336 [20:52] <WuggsBoson> we hear them complaining about how their accounts are being taken over
#1337 [20:52] <DiskDaemon> hah. not necessarily
#1338 [20:52] <ShaRose> "but we get a lot of logins"
#1339 [20:52] <ShaRose> this solves that problem, there's no reason to not use it
#1340 [20:52] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: no, its just that compared to the entire rest of the process, logging in is fast
#1341 [20:52] <DopeGhoti> You are not going to sit there, Wug, and say no one has complained about the login servers falling over due to high traffic.
#1342 [20:53] <WuggsBoson> no, you're right, I'm noty
#1343 [20:53] <DopeGhoti> Not with a straight face.
#1344 [20:53] <DopeGhoti> If we reduce the traffic needed to log in, that helps to solve that problem.
#1345 [20:53] <WuggsBoson> but I will sit here and point out that the login servers sometimes fall over for no reason
#1346 [20:54] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson and that's an argument for not reducing load how?
#1347 [20:54] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: no. but it negates the argument for reducing load
#1348 [20:54] <DopeGhoti> Yes, they sometimes^Woften fall over because someone in the People's Republic of Belgistan sneezed a week ago. That doesn't invalidate the point that reducing traffic needed for login would be an objectively good thing.
#1349 [20:54] <WuggsBoson> and seeing as theres another MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM to be dealt with
#1350 [20:55] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson and this protocol does that too
#1351 [20:55] <DopeGhoti> Two birds, one stone.
#1352 [20:55] <WuggsBoson> where I come from, thats called earmarking
#1353 [20:55] <ShaRose> DopeGhoti actually the new one hits somewhere in the area of 6 birds with one stone
#1354 [20:55] <ShaRose> aka it's a really good throw
#1355 [20:55] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: go benchmark it then
#1356 [20:56] <WuggsBoson> something like 500000 connections over both https and your method
#1357 [20:56] <WuggsBoson> if there is less then 5 seconds difference, it doesnt matter
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#1359 [20:57] <WuggsBoson> also, convince grum, not me
#1360 [20:57] <ShaRose> Grum doesn't even try to argue any points he just says "ehhh no"
#1361 [20:58] <WuggsBoson> (grum has already expressed wishes to keep the login server as unmodified from its present state as possible)
#1362 [20:58] <WuggsBoson> partly because we know it works
#1363 [20:58] <WuggsBoson> and the problem isnt the login server, its the other part
#1364 [20:58] <WuggsBoson> if you absolutely must fix the fact that the initial one time login doesnt take 5ms less, then do it seperately
#1365 [21:01] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson why are you acting like it doesn't solve that issue
#1366 [21:02] <WuggsBoson> first of all
#1367 [21:02] <WuggsBoson> its not an issue. mojang is not trying to fix the fact that the login server is slow
#1368 [21:02] <ShaRose> and they shouldn't why?
#1369 [21:02] <WuggsBoson> they are trying to fix the fact that there exists a man in the middle attack that allows accounts to be taken over
#1370 [21:02] <WuggsBoson> which is a million times more important
#1371 [21:02] <ShaRose> actually, they aren't doing that either, but moving along
#1372 [21:03] <WuggsBoson> you know what I mean
#1373 [21:03] <WuggsBoson> rephrased: they dont care about the fact that the login is slow, but they do care a little about the account takeover
#1374 [21:04] <WuggsBoson> I would bet that they dont get many emails about login being slow
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#1377 [21:05] <WuggsBoson> I had never even considered it until you brought it up the other day
#1378 [21:05] <WuggsBoson> its less than the load time on all of my computers, even the fast ones
#1379 [21:06] <DopeGhoti> Wug: If your ship is sinking, and I give you a fix that also happens to give the ship's engines 50 more horsepower, THAT IS NOT A BAD THING
#1380 [21:07] <WuggsBoson> I would argue that if your ship has a 10 square meter hole in the hull and you're worried about the fuel economy, you're probably not focusing on the issue at hand
#1381 [21:07] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson and it'd be a dumb argument then too
#1382 [21:08] <DopeGhoti> If the patch for the 10 meter hole makes the ship more hydrodynamic, don't bitch about the color, just bolt the sucker on.
#1383 [21:08] <ShaRose> horsepower doesn't have anything to do with fuel economy~
#1384 [21:08] <DopeGhoti> Thanks for playing "Not Very Good Analogies"
#1385 [21:08] <WuggsBoson> ShaRose: dont bugger about the microtext of my argument when you know perfectly well that I can change one word and make it valid
#1386 [21:09] <WuggsBoson> I would argue that if your ship has a 10 square meter hole in the hull and you're worried about the power, you're probably not focusing on the issue at hand
#1387 [21:10] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson you did more than once
#1388 [21:10] <DopeGhoti> I would argue that if your ship, which is known to capsize every time it gets into port to add a new item to the cafeteria manu, has a hole in it, and the fix makes capsizing less likely AND plugs the hole, it is probably a good idea.
#1389 [21:11] <WuggsBoson> This is like watching brick walls argue with each other
#1390 [21:11] <WuggsBoson> point number 2. if you can convince grum to do it than fine
#1391 [21:11] <WuggsBoson> if you cant, you shouldnt bother
#1392 [21:11] <ShaRose> convince grum
#1393 [21:11] <ShaRose> lol
#1394 [21:12] <WuggsBoson> if trying causes him to discard your idea, you should especially not bother
#1395 [21:12] <WuggsBoson> since the final case is the one we have to work with
#1396 [21:12] <WuggsBoson> I see no point in championing an alternative to the part of the protocol that works fine
#1397 [21:12] <ShaRose> Grum isn't the final case on the issue though, don't know why you are acting like he is
#1398 [21:13] <WuggsBoson> well it certainly isnt me
#1399 [21:13] <WuggsBoson> I'm sick of arguing about it, and even if you do manage to convince me it wont do any good
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#1401 [21:13] <WuggsBoson> in the interest of not making extra work for myself, I've chosen the simpler, well tested, and currently in use alternative
#1402 [21:13] <WuggsBoson> that, I might add, works just fine
#1403 [21:14] <DopeGhoti> other than that it blows up the auth servers regularly.
#1404 [21:14] <DopeGhoti> so your metric for 'just fine' needs some work
#1405 [21:14] <WuggsBoson> DopeGhoti: if you're trying to argue that the auth servers only point of failure is https transactions, you should reconsider your argument
#1406 [21:14] <ShaRose> And add that just fine isn't a reason to improve something
#1407 [21:14] <DopeGhoti> "So yes, other than that thing with the iceberg, Mrs. Smith, how was the trip on the Titanic?"
#1408 [21:15] <ShaRose> WuggsBoson it's probably a major one if they don't have hardware offloading
#1409 [21:15] <WuggsBoson> the iceberg in this case is the mitm attack
#1410 [21:15] <WuggsBoson> DopeGhoti: your line seems fairly representative of why we should work on that first
#1411 [21:15] <DopeGhoti> WuggsBoson: I never asserted it was the only point of failure, only that is is _a_ known point of failure that has demonstrably failed regularlyu
#1412 [21:15] <WuggsBoson> I dont know why the auth servers fail any more than you do
#1413 [21:15] <WuggsBoson> but I doubt its because of https
#1414 [21:16] <WuggsBoson> its probably issues with the underlying java implementation
#1415 [21:16] <ShaRose> the fewer packets sent and the fewer resources used the better. All the more so if it's more secure.
#1416 [21:17] <WuggsBoson> its not more secure
#1417 [21:17] <WuggsBoson> security comes as a boolean
#1418 [21:17] <WuggsBoson> secure, or not secure
#1419 [21:17] <DopeGhoti> There is no secure if there's a network involved
#1420 [21:17] <DopeGhoti> so if that's the card you're going to play, we may as well just ask for a username and have everyone be an admin on every server.
#1421 [21:18] <WuggsBoson> there is a little room to wiggle in if we're talking about things like protocols which are currently unbreakable but that computers in 10 years might be able to break, like 64 bit hashes
#1422 [21:18] <DopeGhoti> Oh, so it's not a boolean.
#1423 [21:18] <DopeGhoti> make up your mind.
#1424 [21:18] <WuggsBoson> https is as secure as any other properly thought out scheme
#1425 [21:19] <WuggsBoson> more complex does not equate to more secure
#1426 [21:19] <WuggsBoson> I'm not arguing against this because I think its less secure
#1427 [21:19] <WuggsBoson> I'm arguing against it because its more work, and its outside the scope of the problem
#1428 [21:20] <WuggsBoson> a single login can be used to login to any number of smp servers
#1429 [21:21] <WuggsBoson> despite the fact that the channel has had very little traffic apart from our ranting we should go somewhere else
#1430 [21:21] <WuggsBoson> might I suggest #protocol
#1431 [21:22] <ShaRose> well, ideally mollstam / jnz should see our little chat
#1432 [21:22] <ShaRose> jnz since he's far more security minded than either of us and mollstam since he's the one who's gonna have to actually implement it
#1433 [21:22] <WuggsBoson> pastebin it and tell them to go to #protocol
#1434 [21:23] <ShaRose> w/e
#1435 [21:23] <WuggsBoson> jnz isnt very familiar with the problem domain
#1436 [21:23] <WuggsBoson> I did convince him eventually
#1437 [21:24] <WuggsBoson> it was my fault, I forgot to mention that delaying packets was not allowed
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#1447 [22:24] <Fsdl> :P
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#1452 [22:49] <|Anthony|> $check 76.98.216.77
#1453 [22:49] <|Anthony|> no?
#1454 [22:49] <|Anthony|> damn
#1455 [22:55] <DopeGhoti> s/$/!/
#1456 [22:55] <DiskDaemon> !check 76.98.216.77
#1457 [23:00] * Wejq|irssi [Wejq|irssi@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1458 [23:00] <GreyVulpine> ?? snapshot
#1459 [23:00] <VoxelHead> snapshot: Latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w15a/minecraft.jar
#1460 [23:00] <GreyVulpine> ??~snapshot|latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w16a/minecraft.jar
#1461 [23:00] * GreyVulpine blinks
#1461 [23:00] <DiskDaemon> ?? snapshot
#1462 [23:00] <VoxelHead> snapshot: Latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w15a/minecraft.jar
#1463 [23:00] <DiskDaemon> hrm
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#1465 [23:02] <GreyVulpine> ??~snapshot|latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w16a/minecraft.jar
#1466 [23:03] <GreyVulpine> ??~ snapshot|latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w16a/minecraft.jar
#1467 [23:03] <GreyVulpine> Ah
#1468 [23:03] <GreyVulpine> ?? snapshot
#1469 [23:03] <VoxelHead> snapshot: latest snapshot is http://assets.minecraft.net/12w16a/minecraft.jar
#1470 [23:11] * neen [neen@notlogged] has joined #minecrafthelp
#1471 [23:16] <GreyVulpine> Wow, dead linger reached $102K on kickstarter.
#1472 [23:16] <GreyVulpine> Go them.
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